Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

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retrofuturist
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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:48 am

Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:Please show otherwise !
I have no inclination to do so, but thank you for checking out the Abhidhamma-speak at the door. It will be waiting and available for you, upon your exit. Please enjoy your stay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by Kenshou » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:34 am

Now can I put the question again: do concepts (such as schools, person, women, men...) belong to the five khandas? Or they are just the mirages created by different processes as the five khandas are working?
Since all the constituents of a concept are of the 5 aggregates, I don't see how a concept could be mirage like or illusory, it is comprised entirely of events that are actually occurring. And the labels we apply to those bundles of various mental objects comprising a concept (schools, person, women, as you say) could probably just be classified as sanna. So I don't see the mirage here.

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:01 am

Kenshou wrote:
Now can I put the question again: do concepts (such as schools, person, women, men...) belong to the five khandas? Or they are just the mirages created by different processes as the five khandas are working?
Since all the constituents of a concept are of the 5 aggregates, I don't see how a concept could be mirage like or illusory, it is comprised entirely of events that are actually occurring. And the labels we apply to those bundles of various mental objects comprising a concept (schools, person, women, as you say) could probably just be classified as sanna. So I don't see the mirage here.
Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. SN III 46.

A mirage is real. It is just that we may ignorantly assume that it is something other than it is really is. Following that, the sense of self is like a mirage in that we assume that it is something other than it really is.

As a meditative experience -- and this does not involve any sort of conceptual thinking -- the sense of self can be seen in terms of the various aspects that make it up as it rises and falls as part of the process of experience that being mindfully attended to.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:12 am

Hi Retro,

I don't actually see much point in trying to present reasoned arguments if you are going to resort to that silly strawperson nonsense.
retrofuturist wrote:
Furthermore, you have offered no coherent discussion of the point that has been made that thinking about a "complex concept" such as "one plus one is two" involves of a number of objects and processes. Simply saying that it is "an object of mind" is, at best, rather simplistic description.
I have explained it to a context sufficient for realisation of the three characteristics vis-a-vis the six consciousnesses and other schemas found in the Sutta Pitaka.
Sorry, I must have missed or misunderstood that explanation.
retrofuturist wrote: If you seek more edification beyond the Sutta Pitaka, by all means do so Mike - I was just curious about what you anticipated the practical benefits to be (given you so often state your interest is in "practice").
Nothing I have said in this thread is beyond the sutta pitaka.

I have explained what I see as the practical benefits above. To me it's the whole point of a large number of teachings, to understand by observation how these complex concepts (such as a self) are constructed, and I've given several examples.

Clearly they are not well-enough explained. Sorry about that, but I don't see how to add to them.

:namaste:
Mike

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:21 am

mikenz66 wrote: I have explained what I see as the practical benefits above. To me it's the whole point of a large number of teachings, to understand by observation how these complex concepts (such as a self) are constructed, and I've given several examples.

Clearly they are not well-enough explained. Sorry about that, but I don't see how to add to them.
In fact, there is no need, because what I have been trying to explain is discussed by Ven Nananada:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ad#p158385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nananada wrote:This passage indicates that papanca signifies the final stage in the process of sense-cognition. The term definitely concerns the grosser conceptual aspect of the process, since it is a consequent to 'vitakka' (reasoning) which presupposes language.

Hence we should determine how papanca differs from - nay, marks a development on - vitakka. The etymology of the word would help us at this point. Being derived from "pra + panc" it conveys meanings such as 'spreading out', 'expansion', 'diffuseness' and 'manifoldness'. The tendency towards proliferation in the realm of concepts may be described in any one of those terms, and this is probably the primary meaning of papanca.

....
:namaste:
Mike

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:37 am

Greetings Mike,

Indeed - many of the Buddha's instructions pertain to cultivation of appropriate vitakka ... the only time they relate to papanca is in the sense that it should be avoided.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:48 am

retrofuturist wrote: Indeed - many of the Buddha's instructions pertain to cultivation of appropriate vitakka ... the only time they relate to papanca is in the sense that it should be avoided.
So you don't think that one of the points of bhavana is to gain insight into the arising of these various processes, including papanca?

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:19 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:So you don't think that one of the points of bhavana is to gain insight into the arising of these various processes, including papanca?
Good question. I think we're supposed to understand how papanca comes to be (in order to learn to cut it off at the pass), but I think it would be a bit difficult to be simultaneously undertaking papanca and viewing it with insight - they don't seem altogether compatible activities to me... particularly if we're regarding papanca as a form of mental chaos, ala Nanananda's explanation of papanca vis-a-vis vicara.

Other "detailed sequences" as taught by the Buddha seem more amenable to "insight into the[ir] arising" than the one specific to our old friend papanca.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:01 am

mikenz66 wrote:So you don't think that one of the points of bhavana is to gain insight into the arising of these various processes, including papanca?
I don't know why not. One would not see "papanca" as if were a thing to be seen, but in retrospect, one could identify an experience as papanca.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by dhamma follower » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:Please show otherwise !
I have no inclination to do so, but thank you for checking out the Abhidhamma-speak at the door. It will be waiting and available for you, upon your exit. Please enjoy your stay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Could you please show where and how my reasoning and question in the last post depart from the suttas?
Panna?
Tilakkhana?
Five khandas?
Schools?
Men?
Women?

Thanks!

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:55 am

dhamma follower wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:Please show otherwise !
I have no inclination to do so, but thank you for checking out the Abhidhamma-speak at the door. It will be waiting and available for you, upon your exit. Please enjoy your stay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Could you please show where and how my reasoning and question in the last post depart from the suttas?
Panna?
Tilakkhana?
Five khandas?
Schools?
Men?
Women?

Thanks!
You did not depart from the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by Kenshou » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:A mirage is real. It is just that we may ignorantly assume that it is something other than it is really is.
With this I agree. Though I was unsure if this was the sense with which the word was being used by dhamma follower. If it is, then okie dokie.

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:29 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:Please show otherwise !
I have no inclination to do so, but thank you for checking out the Abhidhamma-speak at the door. It will be waiting and available for you, upon your exit. Please enjoy your stay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Could you please show where and how my reasoning and question in the last post depart from the suttas?
Panna?
Tilakkhana?
Five khandas?
Schools?
Men?
Women?

Thanks!
tiltbillings wrote: You did not depart from the suttas.
That's (obviously) my opinion too. Of course, what we are talking about here is implications of the suttas, where, obviously, opinions vary. Since Ven Nananda, for example, has essentially a whole book on papanca, understanding the issues in detail obviously require some teasing out.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:48 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:So you don't think that one of the points of bhavana is to gain insight into the arising of these various processes, including papanca?
Good question. I think we're supposed to understand how papanca comes to be (in order to learn to cut it off at the pass), but I think it would be a bit difficult to be simultaneously undertaking papanca and viewing it with insight - they don't seem altogether compatible activities to me... particularly if we're regarding papanca as a form of mental chaos, ala Nanananda's explanation of papanca vis-a-vis vicara.
Just to be clear, I don't necessarily mean "insight" in a technical "vipassana" sense, just in a common "getting a better understanding" sense.
retrofuturist wrote: Other "detailed sequences" as taught by the Buddha seem more amenable to "insight into the[ir] arising" than the one specific to our old friend papanca.
The papanca sequence is just another dependent origination variation. With contact one has feeling, etc. In this case it leads to conceptualization. In the more common sequence to craving. Both need to be observed and understood.

Both of those are things one can recognize in practice. And this is exactly the sort of thing one is instructed to do by, for example, the Mahasi school: develop some samatha by focussing on some particular object, but notice whatever arises. It's the observation of the sequence of arising that is where interesting stuff often happens.

And conceptual proliferation is, of course, very obvious. One goes from hearing to thinking "bird", and to wondering which sort of bird it is, etc.

As Ven Nananda explains in "Seeing Through" (link on his Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurund ... anda_Thera) , one makes an effort to focus more on the "less-conceptual" hearing process itself.
Nanananda wrote:To take as real what is of a mirage-nature, is a delusion. It is something that leads to a delusion. It is
an illusion that leads to a delusion. In order to understand deeply this mirage-nature in sensory
perception, there is a need for a more refined way of mental attending. So the meditator, instead of
attending to these objects as `form’, `form’ or `sound’, `sound’, moves a step further and notes
them as `seeing’ or `hearing’. Now he attends to these sense-percepts even more briefly, not
allowing the mind to go far – as `seeing- seeing ‘, `hearing- hearing’, `feeling-feeling’,`thinking-
thinking’.
Of course, that's the theory. In practice for most of us the papanca will break through...

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Two "truths"/"descriptions" and meditation in the suttas

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:50 pm

Greetings DF,
dhamma follower wrote:Could you please show where and how my reasoning and question in the last post depart from the suttas?
Panna?
Tilakkhana?
Five khandas?
Schools?
Men?
Women?
No one said it did. Dude, chill.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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