Without fake self could one survive another day ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
sentinel
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:59 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:49 pm
sentinel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:51 am
Without fake self could one survive another day ?
Without self (fake or otherwise), there would be no one to survive, so the question is moot.
Does an animal with self ? Or just some instinct to survive !
Mr no.2

binocular
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:23 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:59 pm
Does an animal with self ? Or just some instinct to survive !
The OP's problem emerges because it's mixing two perspectives: an internal one and an external one.

Who is conceiving of whom as having a self?

(And the concept of instinct in Buddhism? Can you find canonical support for it?)

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cappuccino
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:35 pm

the Blessed One wrote:Though in thought we range throughout the world,
We'll nowhere find a thing more dear than self.
So, since others hold the self so dear,
He who loves himself should injure none.
Mallikaa Sutta

chownah
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by chownah » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:18 am

sentinel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:13 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:45 pm
I don't need to pretend or assume that I have no self because I fully believe that I have no self...although I often forget this.
chownah
Believing is just at best an assumption .
This is just your belief. Belief arises in an individual......one individual can believe that the sun will rise tomorrow while another individual can believe that the sun will not rise tomorrow.....one person can believe that the apple on the tree exists and is real whle another individual can believe that the apple on the tree arises from conditions and is as empty as a glob of foam.

Believing in something does not say anything about the thing you believe....it only says something about the individual that holds the belief.

Now....it seems to me that you have avoided answering my questions and taken us onto a path of contention over things not really related to the discussion.....maybe we could get back the topic at hand if you would answer my original questions which are:
Are you saying that unless you pretend to have a self you would not survive?....are you saying that survival depends on ignorance?
chownah

sentinel
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:32 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:23 pm
Who is conceiving of whom as having a self?
Isnt "what" is conceiving or should be conceiving instead of "who" ?!
Isnt the one conceiving is the fake self ?!
Mr no.2

sentinel
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:41 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:18 am
Now....it seems to me that you have avoided answering my questions .
maybe we could get back the topic at hand if you would answer my original questions which are:
Are you saying that unless you pretend to have a self you would not survive?....are you saying that survival depends on ignorance?
chownah
Did you avoided answering my question ?
Now , let's get back to (below) my Original opening question if you happen to missed it . Instead of your counter question , if you are interested please start another thread , i might try to answer it or someone else might . Did you already answered my question ? :shrug:
According to buddhism the aim is to eliminate the sense of self or conceit ie the fake self . But in reality is it possible not to defend yourself , your very body as self and its possessions ?!
Mr no.2

chownah
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by chownah » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:26 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:41 am
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:18 am
Now....it seems to me that you have avoided answering my questions .
maybe we could get back the topic at hand if you would answer my original questions which are:
Are you saying that unless you pretend to have a self you would not survive?....are you saying that survival depends on ignorance?
chownah
Did you avoided answering my question ?
Now , let's get back to (below) my Original opening question if you happen to missed it . Instead of your counter question , if you are interested please start another thread , i might try to answer it or someone else might . Did you already answered my question ? :shrug:
According to buddhism the aim is to eliminate the sense of self or conceit ie the fake self . But in reality is it possible not to defend yourself , your very body as self and its possessions ?!
I did not avoid answering your question because yes, I already did answer your question when I wrote:
I find that on the occasions where it seems that I don't act in defense of self that I am more aware of my surroundings and probably I am better at avoiding bodily dangers.
Perviously you said that you thought my counter question was good....so now will you answer it?....I think it might start a discussion about what exactly you meant when in the title you asked "Without fake self could one survive another day ?" Just as a reminder here are my questions:
Are you saying that unless you pretend to have a self you would not survive?....are you saying that survival depends on ignorance?
chownah

sentinel
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:53 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:26 am
I find that on the occasions where it seems that I don't act in defense of self that I am more aware of my surroundings and probably I am better at avoiding bodily dangers.
Your answer appear still have a self .
Just as a reminder here are my questions:
Please dont remind me again .
Are you saying that unless you pretend to have a self you would not survive?....are you saying that survival depends on ignorance?

I simply said , fake self is to be abandoned , an arahant would not make any effort to prolong life . I am not saying pretending , in actuality everyone (except arahant) thinks that there is a self . That very fake self is an outcome of ignorance , no ?
Without the fake self , i doubt there is No so called freewill (believes to be) of fake self to prolong the physical body survival . No ?

Regards
Mr no.2

chownah
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by chownah » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:19 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:53 am
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:26 am
I find that on the occasions where it seems that I don't act in defense of self that I am more aware of my surroundings and probably I am better at avoiding bodily dangers.
Your answer appear still have a self .
I am not the topic of discussion here...
chownah

chownah
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by chownah » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:34 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:53 am
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:26 am
I find that on the occasions where it seems that I don't act in defense of self that I am more aware of my surroundings and probably I am better at avoiding bodily dangers.
Your answer appear still have a self .
Just as a reminder here are my questions:
Please dont remind me again .
Are you saying that unless you pretend to have a self you would not survive?....are you saying that survival depends on ignorance?

I simply said , fake self is to be abandoned , an arahant would not make any effort to prolong life . I am not saying pretending , in actuality everyone (except arahant) thinks that there is a self . That very fake self is an outcome of ignorance , no ?
Without the fake self , i doubt there is No so called freewill (believes to be) of fake self to prolong the physical body survival . No ?

Regards
But you did say pretending....here:
sentinel wrote: Good counter question , perhaps try it out yourself , "pretend" or assume it that you are without self
....that is why I responded using "pretend".....
Do you think that you know what efforts and arahant would expend? Do you think you really know if an arahant would not make any effort to prolong life....for example, arahants would not eat?

Do you really know what everyone thinks so that you can rightfully make the statement "in actuality everyone (except arahant) thinks that there is a self ".......do you really think that you know this?

chownah

sentinel
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by sentinel » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:35 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:34 pm

But you did say pretending....here:
perhaps try it out yourself , "pretend" or assume it that you are without self
....that is why I responded using "pretend".....
Dont be upset , i try to show you if you are without self which is just trying by assuming or pretending , so that you could see if there is any difference when meet with dangers coming from someone and something . Since almost everyone are not arahant yet , we are all considered kind of "self" equipped , hence our survival depends on the fake self . Okay , i hope this help to clarify if there exist any misunderstanding along this .
Mr no.2

chownah
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by chownah » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:02 pm

sentinel wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:35 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:34 pm

But you did say pretending....here:
perhaps try it out yourself , "pretend" or assume it that you are without self
....that is why I responded using "pretend".....
Dont be upset , i try to show you if you are without self which is just trying by assuming or pretending , so that you could see if there is any difference when meet with dangers coming from someone and something . Since almost everyone are not arahant yet , we are all considered kind of "self" equipped , hence our survival depends on the fake self . Okay , i hope this help to clarify if there exist any misunderstanding along this .
My experience is that a sense of having a self is not necessary to deal with bodily dangers....you seem to disagree with what I have experienced and how I interpret it. That is ok with me....I have nothing else to say on the topic.
chownah

confusedlayman
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by confusedlayman » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:59 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:51 am
According to buddhism the aim is to eliminate the sense of self or conceit ie the fake self . But in reality is it possible not to defend yourself , your very body as self and its possessions ?! Even if one disagrees with someone or something , that is defending the views which is a personal view .
If u become arhant then if some danger comes like.murder the u die withoyt self defense. If u have slight clining of self then u might self defense and cause karma
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by Crazy cloud » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:25 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:51 am
According to buddhism the aim is to eliminate the sense of self or conceit ie the fake self . But in reality is it possible not to defend yourself , your very body as self and its possessions ?! Even if one disagrees with someone or something , that is defending the views which is a personal view .
A fake self creates reality out of facts and distorts it to fit itself. Facts can kill both the fake and the true self, but the true self reacts according to real facts.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

sunnat
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Re: Without fake self could one survive another day ?

Post by sunnat » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:51 pm

The aim of buddha practice is not to eliminate self. That is a by product. Buddha discovered not-self when he discovered and walked the middle path seeking the end of suffering.

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