Abandoning greed of higher fetters

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sentinel
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Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by sentinel »

How to abandon greed of form realm and of formless realm ? Please list out what kind of greed to be abandoned that of both realm ?
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JohnK
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by JohnK »

To desire release from the fetters (higher or otherwise), I don't think is necessarily greed.
It seems that abandoning attachment (greed) to anything is a process of seeing that it is not satisfactory (danger), having some conviction in an alternative (escape), and knowing/following a path of practice. One abandons attachment progressively from attachment to crude pleasures to attachment to more refined pleasures.
(Of course, I may not be understanding the question completely.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
SteRo
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by SteRo »

sentinel wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:07 pm How to abandon greed of form realm and of formless realm ? Please list out what kind of greed to be abandoned that of both realm ?
Don't err as to fetters. If you take up particular fetters conceptually you will miss that there is always a set of fetters abandoned as a whole upon attainment of a particular ariya level.
So when is greed for form realm and formless realm abandoned? it is abandoned together with conceit, restlessness and ignorance upon attaining Arahantship.
Think about this wisely.
The habit to grasp as realities the concepts arising from contacting words seems to be deep-rooted.
SarathW
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by SarathW »

Even the higher realms are impermanent.
once you exhausted your Kamma you still will be landed in a Kamavacara realm.
It is not a permanent solution.
Nibbana is a permenanent solution.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sentinel
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by sentinel »

JohnK wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:02 pm To desire release from the fetters (higher or otherwise), I don't think is necessarily greed.
It seems that abandoning attachment (greed) to anything is a process of seeing that it is not satisfactory (danger), having some conviction in an alternative (escape), and knowing/following a path of practice. One abandons attachment progressively from attachment to crude pleasures to attachment to more refined pleasures.
(Of course, I may not be understanding the question completely.)
Unsatisfactoriness is not suffice , with determination one has to know the details before one could abandon anything i suppose .
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2600htz
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

You can´t, unless you become an arahant, since that fetters are abandoned with arahanship.

But of course you can diminish the higher fetters, you can have less: restlessness, ignorance, conceit and material/inmaterial desire to be reborn.

How? practicing precept, meditation, etc. Less craving= less tied to the fetters.

Regards.
JohnK
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by JohnK »

2600htz wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:50 pm Less craving= less tied to the fetters.
Regards.
Hi, I'm probably being overly technical with what is a metaphor (fetter), but I think one can't be "less tied" to a fetter. It is ether broken or not. However, with practice, the hindrances that arise from or are expressions of the fetters can be weakened, can arise less frequently. This might be expressed as being "less tied to the fetters," but I find it helpful to see it as I described.
:anjali:
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2600htz
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by 2600htz »

JohnK wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:25 pm
2600htz wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:50 pm Less craving= less tied to the fetters.
Regards.
Hi, I'm probably being overly technical with what is a metaphor (fetter), but I think one can't be "less tied" to a fetter. It is ether broken or not. However, with practice, the hindrances that arise from or are expressions of the fetters can be weakened, can arise less frequently. This might be expressed as being "less tied to the fetters," but I find it helpful to see it as I described.
:anjali:
Hi:

The way i see it:

Fetters and hindrances are the same thing, its not that hindrances arise or are expressions of the fetters.

Its just that the word hindrance is used in the context of mundane attainments and daily life ("i had restlessness in my meditation of today, or im having doubt"), while fetters are used in the context of supramundane attainments (this is when they are "their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. ")

So it about context, but you are right, strictly using the term fetter, we cant be "less tied".

Regards.
JohnK
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by JohnK »

2600htz wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:39 pm Hi:

The way i see it:

Fetters and hindrances are the same thing,...
My understanding:
Fetters: one is fettered until one is not -- once and for all (Fetters are broken only at their respective stages of awakening).
Hindrances: come and go, come and go, come and go (until unfettered).
For example, the Hindrance of ill will comes and goes until the Fetter of ill will is broken by a nonreturner.

Ill will is an example of a Hindrance and a Fetter having the same name (as translated, I don't know the Pali), but there are 10 Fetters and 5 Hindrances (is there correspondence?)
For example, it seems that the Fetter regarding rites and rituals has no corresponding formal Hindrance (seems more like Wrong View).
Belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals can hinder one's progress, and so could perhaps be informally considered a hindrance (small "h).

And I have no idea if we are addressing the concerns of the OP -- I suspect not.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
sentinel
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by sentinel »

I suppose the 5 hindrances need to be overcome and suppresses in order to make the mind pliant and wieldy, being radiant of lucidity , achieving firmness and can concentrate well . These are 5 obstacles for developing meditation and not considered fetters .
Fetters however are bonds that need to be cut through . But get back to my questions where the higher fetters of desire for form and formless realms comprise of what ?
And how to cut through desire of higher fetters ?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by confusedlayman »

sentinel wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:07 pm How to abandon greed of form realm and of formless realm ? Please list out what kind of greed to be abandoned that of both realm ?
for that u have to acheive all 8 jhana and do 9th jhana and compare all 8 jhana exp vs 9th and u see drawebacks of all 8 jhana compared to 9th and see cessation of exp better than more refined exp. or else if u r dry insight practioner then compare mind that doesnt cling vs mind that cling. clining to stress (all phenomena) vs non clining to stress and compare the drabacks and let go which one u think is causing suffering. only by compare and contrast u can know which is poison and which is non poison.
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by Srilankaputra »

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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confusedlayman
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by confusedlayman »

Srilankaputra wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:18 am
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
why should arhant reflect.. is not he is aware of it 24 x 7?
I take refuge in 3 jewels that are most rare thing
JohnK
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Re: Abandoning greed of higher fetters

Post by JohnK »

Srilankaputra wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:18 am
"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."
:goodpost:
Or, in one word "Insight."
I suspect the desire for these "realms" can refer to where one wants to be reborn or to the desire for the absorptions.
I have been reading Ven. Maha Boowa lately. He talks about how seductive the "radiant mind" is: it is so gratifying and wonderful that one wants to dwell right there, and it can deceive one into thinking one has attained final release. But relentless mindfulness and discernment can reveal that even the most refined states contain subtle disturbances. Seeing this, dispassion can arise. (I hope I am not misrepresenting Ven. Maha Boowa in any way.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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