Are Therevadins the true heretics?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Perezoso
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Perezoso »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:52 am
What is matter? Never mind.
What is mind? No matter.
Is this a very old Simpsons quote? Awesome!

Perezoso
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Perezoso »

befriend wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:48 am
All is unreal? I think you mean the thought of an autonomous self is the mother of all afflictive states and that everything we think of as you, me, chair, cat is delusion this illusion is based on thought everyone thing is not self and dependently arises coming into being by causes and conditions. Non self or emptiness doesn't mean non existent read what the Dalai Lama has to say about it.
Could you please direct me to the Dalai Lamas words on this matter?

Perezoso
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Perezoso »

DNS wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:51 am
If you look at the moon and then turn away, sorry to disappoint you, but the moon is still there. :tongue:

Humans have been around for about 3 to 5 million years. Prior to that, there was life on earth, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, animals evolving; a human consciousness did not need to be there to perceive it.
Thank you. Do the suttas state or imply Anything like this?

Perezoso
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Perezoso »

Pondera wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:19 am
The Buddha taught 6 sense faculties - 6 types of sensual consciousness - and six types of sense objects.

He also taught consciousness kasina. As David said, the moon exists whether you are looking at it or not.

Sense objects exist independently of the mind. When sense consciousness connects sense objects with sense faculties we have what the Buddha taught as “contact” (ie. sense perception).

When sense objects are beyond the range of sense faculties and there is no corresponding sense consciousness the objects do not disappear - they exist without any “contact”.

This is the meaning of the state of “neither perception nor non perception”. Consciousness is not present in this state and therefore there is no contact. However the practitioner is still aware that things exist externally to him.

Finally when all contact has ceased via the elimination of sense consciousness we have Unbinding or the cessation of perception and feeling. Is it your argument that for a person experiencing Nibbana the world is extinguished?
Thank you. Do you know of where any of this is said in the Pali Canon?

Perezoso
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Perezoso »

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:31 am
Perezoso wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pm
From reading about Buddhism it seems like all Buddhism explains that the Buddha taught all is imaginary or mind or consciousness
Hi P. The Buddha didn't teach this.
Perezoso wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pm
extremely similar, if only in this respect, to it's parent religion, Hinduism.
Hinduism didn't exist before Buddhism. Before Buddhism, the old religion we call "Brahmanism". Also, you should not call "Brahmanism" the Buddha's parent.
Perezoso wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pm
I challenge the Theravadins on this forum to provide proof that the Buddha taught that anything like matter exists or that everything is not imaginary, explicitly or even strongly implicitly.
Below:
What, bhikkhu, is the earth element? The earth element may be either internal or external. What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to, that is, head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to: this is called the internal earth element. Now both the internal earth element and the external earth element are simply earth element.

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi
Below:
It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Below is the strongest, which describes the cessation of consciousness in the living being:
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications [breathing] have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications [thoughts] ... his mental fabrications [perceptions & feelings] have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered.

But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his [physical sense organ] faculties are exceptionally clear [clean]. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Interesting!

So a person who's consciousness has ceased still has a body, there are internal and external earth element, and the Buddha spoke of the body as existing for some time and discussed it in parallel to the mind as if the two are not the same! Pretty strongly implicit that things are not utterly unreal or imaginary!

Thanks!

santa100
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by santa100 »

Perezoso wrote:Are Therevadins the true heretics?
First thing first, care to provide the exact sutta quotes and/or backup literatures to the highlighted parts below?
Perezoso wrote:From reading about Buddhism it seems like all Buddhism explains that the Buddha taught all is imaginary or mind or consciousness, extremely similar, if only in this respect, to it's parent religion, Hinduism.
Perezoso wrote:Both religions teach that all is consciousness or mind and only Theravada stands alone in stating otherwise.

If not that, some say he taught all is unreal or non existent in some other way. Again only Theravada teach otherwise.

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DNS »

Perezoso wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:41 pm
DNS wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:51 am
If you look at the moon and then turn away, sorry to disappoint you, but the moon is still there. :tongue:

Humans have been around for about 3 to 5 million years. Prior to that, there was life on earth, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, animals evolving; a human consciousness did not need to be there to perceive it.
Thank you. Do the suttas state or imply Anything like this?
I'm not sure of the exact, good sutta quotes off the top of my head, but in general the suttas dealing with Dependent Origination show that it is a mix of the natural and spiritual -- the real world with a confluence of our thoughts, deeds, and actions, dependent on each other, producing our reality. There is anatta, but there is also the real world which we interact with and are dependent on each other.

Whereas in some (most?) Hindu and Mahayana schools, it is seen as emptiness and illusory. And in those schools you are more likely to hear ideas that all is illusion, there is nothing real; less so or not at all in Theravada.

The Aggañña Sutta details an evolutionary process, without humans present, similar to natural biological evolution.

Chanh Dao
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Chanh Dao »

Perezoso wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:29 pm
From reading about Buddhism it seems like all Buddhism explains that the Buddha taught all is imaginary or mind or consciousness, extremely similar, if only in this respect, to it's parent religion, Hinduism.

Both religions teach that all is consciousness or mind and only Theravada stands alone in stating otherwise.

If not that, some say he taught all is unreal or non existent in some other way. Again only Theravada teach otherwise.

I challenge the Theravadins on this forum to provide proof that the Buddha taught that anything like matter exists or that everything is not imaginary, explicitly or even strongly implicitly.

If this cannot be done, and the idea that matter exists is sectarian, derived purely from extra canonical works, does this mean that the Theravada school is heretical with respect to the Pali Canon? Any realism being utterly foreign; a Theravada invented interloper in the pure idealism of the Pali Canon?


When you are in the water, swim.

When you are on the land, walk.

When you are in the sky, fly.

If it is cold, put on a jacket.


If it is hot, take it off.

The Buddha was not a heretic and neither are you.

Be well and prosper. :yingyang:

Pulsar
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Pulsar »

Perezoso wrote 
From reading about Buddhism it seems like all Buddhism explains that the Buddha taught all is imaginary or mind or consciousness, extremely similar, if only in this respect, to it's parent religion, Hinduism.

Both religions teach that all is consciousness or mind and only Theravada stands alone in stating otherwise.

If not that, some say he taught all is unreal or non existent in some other way. Again only Theravada teach otherwise.

I challenge the Theravadins on this forum to provide proof that the Buddha taught that anything like matter exists or that everything is not imaginary, explicitly or even strongly implicitly.

If this cannot be done, and the idea that matter exists is sectarian, derived purely from extra canonical works, does this mean that the Theravada school is heretical with respect to the Pali Canon? Any realism being utterly foreign; a Theravada invented interloper in the pure idealism of the Pali Canon?
Using MN 18, to answer OP, since OP's  is a case of simple mental proliferation, how do we tackle it?
I use  a simplified excerpt from MN 18, attributed to Buddha
Friend I assert and proclaim my teaching in such a way,
'Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world,
it is the world that disputes with me. A speaker of Dhamma,
does not dispute with anyone in the world
 
The second part of the passage may be taken to mean that
for the Arahant (spoken of here as "that Brahmin" with reference to the Buddha himself),
perceptions no longer awaken
the dormant underlying tendencies to
defilements: to lust, to aversions, to views, to doubt,
to conceit, desire for being, to ignorance
This would be  the end of resorting to rods and weapons,
of quarrels, brawls disputes, recriminations,
malicious words, and false speech;
here these evil unwholesome states cease
without remainder
PS A compound used in the sutta,  
Papanca-sanna-sankha
which BB considers problematic, if we can solve that problem, we are home free. It will be a a most excellent meditation, it is only through quieting papanca that we get access to the truth. There is no other way, not in Theravada, not in Mahayana, not in Samkhya.
With love :candle:

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Perezoso wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:39 pm
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:52 am
What is matter? Never mind.
What is mind? No matter.
Is this a very old Simpsons quote? Awesome!
It is much older than the Simpsons. Allegedly, first made by George Berkley. Debating such issues is immaterial. Practise insight meditation to gain analytical knowledge of mind and matter (nāmarūpapariccheda-ñāṇa), and resolve your doubts instead of engaging in trolling and futile debate.
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Perezoso
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Perezoso »

DNS wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:09 pm
Perezoso wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:41 pm
DNS wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:51 am
If you look at the moon and then turn away, sorry to disappoint you, but the moon is still there. :tongue:

Humans have been around for about 3 to 5 million years. Prior to that, there was life on earth, volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, animals evolving; a human consciousness did not need to be there to perceive it.
Thank you. Do the suttas state or imply Anything like this?
I'm not sure of the exact, good sutta quotes off the top of my head, but in general the suttas dealing with Dependent Origination show that it is a mix of the natural and spiritual -- the real world with a confluence of our thoughts, deeds, and actions, dependent on each other, producing our reality. There is anatta, but there is also the real world which we interact with and are dependent on each other.

Whereas in some (most?) Hindu and Mahayana schools, it is seen as emptiness and illusory. And in those schools you are more likely to hear ideas that all is illusion, there is nothing real; less so or not at all in Theravada.

The Aggañña Sutta details an evolutionary process, without humans present, similar to natural biological evolution.

Thank you. I looked it up. Indeed it seems you are correct, it is unambiguous in this sutta that matter is not the same thing as mind, nor does it seem to be a mere illusion, but rather a result that causes concrete and undesirable consequences.
But so long as they ate that solid nectar, their bodies became more solid...


Then those beings gathered together and bemoaned, ‘Oh, how wicked things have appeared among beings! For we used to be mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and we remained like that for a very long time.
-Agganna sutta



Perhaps I had it completely backwards?

I may have been conflating Mahayana sutras and teachings with the Pali Canon.

From a strictly Pali Canon perspective it sounds like, from the Agganna sutta and all the other sutta info provided by other users above, those who teach that all is mind/consciousness or all is unreal/non-existent/illusory are holding a heretical position and the Theravadins, at least broadly in this respect - namely, holding that matter exists to some degree - are the orthodox.

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DNS
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

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Perezoso wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:54 pm
From a strictly Pali Canon perspective it sounds like, from the Agganna sutta and all the other sutta info provided by other users above, those who teach that all is mind/consciousness or all is unreal/non-existent/illusory are holding a heretical position and the Theravadins, at least broadly in this respect - namely, holding that matter exists to some degree - are the orthodox.
-- and correct (in my opinion). :thumbsup:

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

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Do we say that matter exists? Seems we say there is the phenomenon of hard, soft etc but to say that matter “exists” is to enter into speculation.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by DNS »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 pm
Do we say that matter exists? Seems we say there is the phenomenon of hard, soft etc but to say that matter “exists” is to enter into speculation.
Rupa: material, 'materiality'

rūpa-khandha – "material forms," one of the five aggregates

The 4 primary elements: existing rūpa
earth or solidity
fire or heat
water or cohesion
air or movement

Exists, but with conditions, dependent on nama-rupa, conditioned contact, etc., as in DO.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Are Therevadins the true heretics?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:00 pm
Do we say that matter exists? Seems we say there is the phenomenon of hard, soft etc but to say that matter “exists” is to enter into speculation.
Rupa: material, 'materiality'

rūpa-khandha – "material forms," one of the five aggregates

The 4 primary elements: existing rūpa
earth or solidity
fire or heat
water or cohesion
air or movement


The 4 primary elements in conjunction with nama give rise to “rock”, but that doesn’t mean that matter really really exists. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist either. Saying it exists is to say the world exists.
“For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.” MN 140

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