Conceit = identity view

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sentinel
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by sentinel » Wed May 15, 2019 5:51 pm

santa100 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:31 pm
sentinel wrote:Imo both are the same .

Conceit = identity view .

I know many will disagree , however ,

Let’s see what the text says...Sn 35.108...Sn 22.82
Just a quick note on Sutta naming convention, suttas in the Connected Discourses/Samyutta Nikaya are abbreviated as all-uppercased "SN" (ex: SN 35.108, SN 22.82,...), while those in the Short Discourses/Khuddaka Nikaya's Suttanipata collection are abbreviated in camelcase "Sn" or "Snp" (ex: Snp 1.2, Snp 4.1,...)

Back to the OP, SN 35.108 and SN 22.82 never state that conceit is the same as identity view. It's like saying humans have 2 eyes, cats have 2 eyes, hence humans = cats. Anyway, similar topics have been discussed pretty thoroughly on DW, see here for more details.
Thanks (about SN)
I know what the text says ,
No you have to read carefully what I point to .

Regards
:buddha1:

sentinel
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by sentinel » Wed May 15, 2019 6:01 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:47 pm
sentinel wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:55 pm
[...]
Khemaka had uprooted identity view but not conceit, he was not an arahant.
Identity view and conceit are not the same.
Please read the passage I quoted again, there is no problem.

The part you quoted in bold is simply the elders misunderstanding.
I know what the text says , both are different .
However , many texts was corrupted .
Say if you are a sotapanna you see the dependent origination, you see the dhamma . How would you still think the five aggregates as "I am" ?
If you still think the five aggregates as I am ,
You are not a sotapanna .
You would not think in term of "I am" anymore for a sotapanna .
That's mean the text already gone through alteration .


Conceit is thinking I am superior inferior equal .
So , thinking is part of the mind . That's mean one is regarding the mind as I am or self but a sotapanna would not , that's why s/he surely destined for liberation .
:buddha1:

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bridif1
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:03 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:51 pm
I know what the text says ,
No you have to read carefully what I point to .

Regards
Hi Sentinel!

I interpret the Khemaka Sutta as stating that the destruction of identity view is the understanding that the khandhas are not-self. That is not so hard to understand, at least theoretically. Conceit, on the other hand, is what remains of the habit of seeing the khandhas of the past, present and future as the self, and so, the habit of thinking "I am such..." and to compare that "I am" to others' "I am".
Conceit is like the residue of so much time assuming a wrong identity view, even when you know tha logically, the aggregates are not the self.

It is like the difference between knowing that smoking is a bad for your health, and actually stop smoking and craving for smoking.

Kind regards!

sentinel
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by sentinel » Wed May 15, 2019 6:10 pm

bridif1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:03 pm
sentinel wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:51 pm
I know what the text says ,
No you have to read carefully what I point to .

Regards
Hi Sentinel!

I interpret the Khemaka Sutta as stating that the destruction of identity view is the understanding that the khandhas are not-self. That is not so hard to understand, at least theoretically. Conceit, on the other hand, is what remains of the habit of seeing the khandhas of the past, present and future as the self, and so, the habit of thinking "I am such..." and to compare that "I am" to others' "I am".
Conceit is like the residue of so much time assuming a wrong identity view, even when you know tha logically, the aggregates are not the self.

It is like the difference between knowing that smoking is a bad for your health, and actually stop smoking and craving for smoking.

Kind regards!
No , that is why a sotapanna is not a theoretically understand the five aggregates as not self .
If It is so , everyone is already an ariya !

Please tell me says if you think you are more intelligent than me , is that mean you are looking at your self as not self ?

A sotapanna see dependent origination , see the dhamma , i.e. the five aggregates as not self .
Therefore , one would not think in term of I am .
So , I say there is a problem with the text which you accepted without questioning first and do investigation into the text .


Regards .
:buddha1:

sentinel
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by sentinel » Wed May 15, 2019 6:18 pm

Ok members ,

I would like to invite you all to investigate further on this matter , if you wish to .
If all the text is genuine then we have no problem and free to follow . But , what if all the while we were mistaken ?
So , never mind , if I am wrong , I will not progress probably .
But , what if I am right ?


Best regards .
:buddha1:

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bridif1
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by bridif1 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:19 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:10 pm
...
There's no need to attack each other.
I just stated what I thought, and I never said I was smarter than you. I don't know you, how could I say that?

Let's agree we disagree on the "identity view = conceit" subject-matter. But do you agree on the example about the difference of knowing and accepting that smoking is dangerous for one's health, and changing the mind habits of still craving for smoking, despite knowing its nocive effects?

Kind regards!
Last edited by bridif1 on Wed May 15, 2019 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Nicolas
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by Nicolas » Wed May 15, 2019 6:57 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:10 pm
No , that is why a sotapanna is not a theoretically understand the five aggregates as not self .
If It is so , everyone is already an ariya !
[...]
A sotapanna see dependent origination , see the dhamma , i.e. the five aggregates as not self .
Therefore , one would not think in term of I am .
One who is on the path to stream-entry without having reached the fruit of stream-entry can understand on a theoretical level that the five aggregates are anatta.
The sotapanna has attained the fruit of stream-entry and has directly seen (at a certain time or for a certain amount of time) that the aggregates are anatta.
The sotapanna thus knows. This doesn't mean that at another time, the "I am" conceit cannot be. It is still there. The knowledge and direct seeing of anatta has happened in the past, it isn't necessarily continuously present in a visceral way.

Look at the simile I quoted. Even though the cloth is clean (view has been purified), the smell lingers ("I am" conceit).

Here's another simile about seeing water in a well (sotapanna) vs touching or drinking it (arahant):
Kosambī Sutta (SN 12.68) wrote: Friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. Suppose, friend, there was a well along a desert road, but it had neither a rope nor a bucket. Then a man would come along, oppressed and afflicted by the heat, tired, parched, and thirsty. He would look down into the well and the knowledge would occur to him, ‘There is water,’ but he would not be able to make bodily contact with it. So too, friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.

budo
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by budo » Wed May 15, 2019 10:40 pm

Stream entry destroys the latency of views, not conceit.
The seven latencies are the latency of sense-desire, the latency of anger, the latency of conceit, the latency of views, the latency of uncertainty, the latency of the desire for becoming and the latency of ignorance.1 Here, the latencies of views and uncertainty are destroyed through the Path of Stream-entrance. The latency of sense-desire and the latency of anger are destroyed through the Path of Non-Return. The latency of conceit, the latency of desire for becoming and the latency of ignorance are destroyed through the Path of Arahantship.
- Vimuttimaga

sentinel
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Re: Conceit = identity view

Post by sentinel » Thu May 16, 2019 2:55 am

Nicolas wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:57 pm

Here's another simile about seeing water in a well (sotapanna) vs touching or drinking it (arahant):
Kosambī Sutta (SN 12.68) wrote: Friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. Suppose, friend, there was a well along a desert road, but it had neither a rope nor a bucket. Then a man would come along, oppressed and afflicted by the heat, tired, parched, and thirsty. He would look down into the well and the knowledge would occur to him, ‘There is water,’ but he would not be able to make bodily contact with it. So too, friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.
Hi Nicolas , thanks

I read the text above . There is misunderstanding . This is a similar case with the Khemaka sutta .
Please refer to SN22.81 for comparison and clear picture.


I read SN12.68 and the parallel also .
It appears that actually Musila is only seeing the Dhamma . I.e. he sees what is arising is disappearing,therefore he said all is subject to cessation ,
Not that he already attained nibbana .

IT does not say anything about elimination of conceit .


Venerable Saviṭṭha questions Venerable Musīla about his attainments, and concludes he is an arahant. But Venerable Nārada offers an explanation showing that it is possible to see the Dhamma without having fully realized arahantship.


Regards





https://suttacentral.net/sa351/lzh/taisho


尊者那羅問尊者殊勝言:「有異信,乃至異忍,得自覺知見生,所謂有滅則寂滅、涅槃者,汝今便是漏盡阿羅漢耶?」

尊者殊勝言:「我說有滅則寂滅、涅槃,而非漏盡阿羅漢也。」

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.68/en/sujato

In the same way, I have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is nibbana . Yet I am not a perfected one.”


Evameva kho, āvuso, ‘bhavanirodho nibbānan’ti yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ, na camhi arahaṃ khīṇāsavo”ti.
:buddha1:

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