Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

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Volo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Volo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:33 am

Calmoid wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:08 am
as well you can't move after the 4th jhana (bodily sankharas have stopped).
Bodily sankharas are in and out breath as it is defined in the suttas. It is possible to walk without breathing.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Calmoid » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:37 am

Volo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:33 am
Calmoid wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:08 am
as well you can't move after the 4th jhana (bodily sankharas have stopped).
Bodily sankharas are in and out breath as it is defined in the suttas. It is possible to walk without breathing.
If you check the definition of the 5th jhana, then you see that the prerequisite of it is the stopping of bodily sensory contact (perception of sensory contact has stopped, means no perception of the body), so you can't actively walk or move anymore.
Last edited by Calmoid on Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Volo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:39 am

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:25 am
No, the Burden of proof is on someone claiming something exists, not doesnt exist. I can't ask you to prove superman doesn't exist, this fallacy is called "Proving Non-Existence". You claim that one can enter jhana while walking, I'm asking for sutta evidence.
It's you who are claiming that jhāna is restricted to some particular posture. Please, provide reference.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Volo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:44 am

Calmoid wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:37 am
If you check the definition of the 5th jhana, then you see that the prerequisite of it is the stopping of bodily sensory contact (perception of sensory contact has stopped, means no perception of the body), so you can't actively walk or move anymore.
It's arūpa jhānas. We are talking about four rūpa jhānas.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Calmoid » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:52 am

Volo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:44 am
Calmoid wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:37 am
If you check the definition of the 5th jhana, then you see that the prerequisite of it is the stopping of bodily sensory contact (perception of sensory contact has stopped, means no perception of the body), so you can't actively walk or move anymore.
It's arūpa jhānas. We are talking about four rūpa jhānas.
Yes and what conclusion and answer can we draw from that in relation to the op question and other comments?

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Calmoid » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:56 am

Calmoid wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:52 am
Volo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:44 am
Calmoid wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:37 am
If you check the definition of the 5th jhana, then you see that the prerequisite of it is the stopping of bodily sensory contact (perception of sensory contact has stopped, means no perception of the body), so you can't actively walk or move anymore.
It's arūpa jhānas. We are talking about four rūpa jhānas.
Yes and what conclusion and answer can we draw from that in relation to the op question and other comments?
Exactly, that only from the 5th jhana onwards it is stated that it is impossible to walk or move the body, only from the second onwards it is impossible to talk.

Conclusion: Yes, you can walk, eat and talk while remaining in the first jhana.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by chownah » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:03 am

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:46 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:46 pm


Well he literally said he first sits down, attains the jhanas, and then afterwards if he wants to, he can walk around. Are you purposely denying that?
I am really surprised that you would ask me if I am porpoisly denying that the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwords take a walk. Certainly he could do that. I don't see how you could construe that my post was in denial (purposely or not) concerning the buddha's ability to do that.....of course the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwards take a walk!!!!! :shrug:

What I don't see is what this has to do with whether it is possible to walk, talk, eat, etc. in first jhana.
chownah

Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?

If he could remain in first jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down and not just stay in first jhana until he dies? And yet, he sits down and enters first jhana after eating.

So to develop and remain in the jhana factors one needs to be secluded from sensuality (the 6 senses), seeing as how the purpose of jhanas is to cease perception, why would someone walk around in jhanas unless their goal wasn't to cease perceptions? What happens instead is that the Buddha ceases perceptions, finishes his practice, and then gets up and walks around with the purity of mindfulness (attained earlier in fourth jhana), that fades away over time, thus requiring him to sit down every day to enter jhanas again.
He just finished his alms round and his meal. Perhaps he wanted to rest. Perhaps he was in jhana when eating. Perhaps the buddha is in first jhana all the time.

Your post seems to say that the buddha had to enter jhana to purify his mind......was the buddha's mind impure by default and it was only by applying jhana that it became pure again? Do you think you know the state of the buddha's mind?
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:43 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:03 am
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:46 pm

I am really surprised that you would ask me if I am porpoisly denying that the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwords take a walk. Certainly he could do that. I don't see how you could construe that my post was in denial (purposely or not) concerning the buddha's ability to do that.....of course the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwards take a walk!!!!! :shrug:

What I don't see is what this has to do with whether it is possible to walk, talk, eat, etc. in first jhana.
chownah

Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?

If he could remain in first jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down and not just stay in first jhana until he dies? And yet, he sits down and enters first jhana after eating.

So to develop and remain in the jhana factors one needs to be secluded from sensuality (the 6 senses), seeing as how the purpose of jhanas is to cease perception, why would someone walk around in jhanas unless their goal wasn't to cease perceptions? What happens instead is that the Buddha ceases perceptions, finishes his practice, and then gets up and walks around with the purity of mindfulness (attained earlier in fourth jhana), that fades away over time, thus requiring him to sit down every day to enter jhanas again.
He just finished his alms round and his meal. Perhaps he wanted to rest. Perhaps he was in jhana when eating. Perhaps the buddha is in first jhana all the time.

Your post seems to say that the buddha had to enter jhana to purify his mind......was the buddha's mind impure by default and it was only by applying jhana that it became pure again? Do you think you know the state of the buddha's mind?
chownah
There's a difference between purity of mind and purity of faculties. Mindfulness is a faculty. So yes, even a Buddha has to meditate, and he did daily until he died. Even the Buddha and his faculties are subject to impermanence, hence the many suttas of Moggallana saying "the Buddha cleared his supernormal faculties/element to communicate with me"

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by chownah » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:18 am

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:43 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:03 am
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm



Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?

If he could remain in first jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down and not just stay in first jhana until he dies? And yet, he sits down and enters first jhana after eating.

So to develop and remain in the jhana factors one needs to be secluded from sensuality (the 6 senses), seeing as how the purpose of jhanas is to cease perception, why would someone walk around in jhanas unless their goal wasn't to cease perceptions? What happens instead is that the Buddha ceases perceptions, finishes his practice, and then gets up and walks around with the purity of mindfulness (attained earlier in fourth jhana), that fades away over time, thus requiring him to sit down every day to enter jhanas again.
He just finished his alms round and his meal. Perhaps he wanted to rest. Perhaps he was in jhana when eating. Perhaps the buddha is in first jhana all the time.

Your post seems to say that the buddha had to enter jhana to purify his mind......was the buddha's mind impure by default and it was only by applying jhana that it became pure again? Do you think you know the state of the buddha's mind?
chownah
There's a difference between purity of mind and purity of faculties. Mindfulness is a faculty. So yes, even a Buddha has to meditate, and he did daily until he died. Even the Buddha and his faculties are subject to impermanence, hence the many suttas of Moggallana saying "the Buddha cleared his supernormal faculties/element to communicate with me"
I guess you do think you know the state of the mind of the buddha.....but what does this have to do with whether we can be in a state of jhana while walking for instance? And I'll repeat what I said above as I wouldn't want it to get lost because of this diversion:
"He just finished his alms round and his meal. Perhaps he wanted to rest. Perhaps he was in jhana when eating. Perhaps the buddha is in first jhana all the time."
chownah

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:18 am

I guess you do think you know the state of the mind of the buddha.....but what does this have to do with whether we can be in a state of jhana while walking for instance? And I'll repeat what I said above as I wouldn't want it to get lost because of this diversion:
"He just finished his alms round and his meal. Perhaps he wanted to rest. Perhaps he was in jhana when eating. Perhaps the buddha is in first jhana all the time."
chownah
And you never answered my questions, why would he sit down if he can attain jhana while eating or while walking? When the Buddha says he wants to rest he goes into the lions pose, I've seen that in many suttas, where his muscles/back is tired so he goes into lions pose, so what you're saying doesn't match suttas. Also, I've seen in suttas he says that after eating one should walk, not rest, so again, your theory is wrong.

Once again, if he can do things while in jhana, then why would he need to enter jhana again by sitting down.

You don't want to accept the suttas, so continue believing what you want to believe.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by chownah » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:34 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:18 am

I guess you do think you know the state of the mind of the buddha.....but what does this have to do with whether we can be in a state of jhana while walking for instance? And I'll repeat what I said above as I wouldn't want it to get lost because of this diversion:
"He just finished his alms round and his meal. Perhaps he wanted to rest. Perhaps he was in jhana when eating. Perhaps the buddha is in first jhana all the time."
chownah
And you never answered my questions, why would he sit down if he can attain jhana while eating or while walking? When the Buddha says he wants to rest he goes into the lions pose, I've seen that in many suttas, where his muscles/back is tired so he goes into lions pose, so what you're saying doesn't match suttas. Also, I've seen in suttas he says that after eating one should walk, not rest, so again, your theory is wrong.

Once again, if he can do things while in jhana, then why would he need to enter jhana again by sitting down.

You don't want to accept the suttas, so continue believing what you want to believe.
Just like before you took the view that I was denying that the buddha could could sit down, enter jhana, and then take a walk (and for what reason you took this view I have no idea) you are now taking the view that I don't "accept the suttas"....and this time I think you take this view because I don't fabricate the same views which you fabricate.
A big difference between how you approach the suttas and how I approach the suttas is that I don't hold that my views are the only ones of value....I think that your views have value for you and that my views have value for me. You seem to be saying that I've got it all wrong and so it must be that I don't accept the suttas. I think you should be apprised of the fact that I don't hold the same views as you do and I find my views to be helping me greatly on the path....I assume that your views are doing the same for you.
As to why the buddha would sit for jhana: First, I don't pretend to understand the state of the mind of the buddha so my reply is conjecture based on my experiences and understanding....so....maybe the buddha is in first jhana all the time....maybe he sits whenever he wants to go to 4th jhana. I don't really know. My view is that the buddha had attained the goal, had crossed the river, and so could have sunk the raft but he was not an ordinary arahant in that he accepted the task of teaching. His teaching on jhana might have been done as an example to people about jhana....that he might have done jhanas just as a teaching tool but really didn't have to at all....I think that the buddha had put down the burden and was not effected by any sort of "needing" of anything....his teaching in my view was not undertaken by some kind of "need" but rather out of his compassion.

None of this and none of what you have said bears directly on whether first jhana can be attained while walking. What does bear on it is direct experience. Walking meditation (and mindfulness while doing other things as well) is a standard thing in buddhism. People should do it more and see how far they can take it....people don't do it much....probably because they listen to people who think that sitting is the cat's meow....most people think of walking meditation as an add-on to their sitting practice and they don't have time or faith that much can be achieved there. I started meditation as primarily a moving type of meditation and used sitting as an add-on with most of my time done in the moving meditation. One can go way a lot farther in moving mediation than they think but it does take longer for the results to be seen....but in my experience the results are spectacular.
A lot depends on what one thinks jhana is. You have a very rigid view of it and it seems a view that includes the idea that "only this is right and all else is worthless".
chownah

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:51 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:34 pm
budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:18 am

I guess you do think you know the state of the mind of the buddha.....but what does this have to do with whether we can be in a state of jhana while walking for instance? And I'll repeat what I said above as I wouldn't want it to get lost because of this diversion:
"He just finished his alms round and his meal. Perhaps he wanted to rest. Perhaps he was in jhana when eating. Perhaps the buddha is in first jhana all the time."
chownah
And you never answered my questions, why would he sit down if he can attain jhana while eating or while walking? When the Buddha says he wants to rest he goes into the lions pose, I've seen that in many suttas, where his muscles/back is tired so he goes into lions pose, so what you're saying doesn't match suttas. Also, I've seen in suttas he says that after eating one should walk, not rest, so again, your theory is wrong.

Once again, if he can do things while in jhana, then why would he need to enter jhana again by sitting down.

You don't want to accept the suttas, so continue believing what you want to believe.
Just like before you took the view that I was denying that the buddha could could sit down, enter jhana, and then take a walk (and for what reason you took this view I have no idea) you are now taking the view that I don't "accept the suttas"....and this time I think you take this view because I don't fabricate the same views which you fabricate.
A big difference between how you approach the suttas and how I approach the suttas is that I don't hold that my views are the only ones of value....I think that your views have value for you and that my views have value for me. You seem to be saying that I've got it all wrong and so it must be that I don't accept the suttas. I think you should be apprised of the fact that I don't hold the same views as you do and I find my views to be helping me greatly on the path....I assume that your views are doing the same for you.
As to why the buddha would sit for jhana: First, I don't pretend to understand the state of the mind of the buddha so my reply is conjecture based on my experiences and understanding....so....maybe the buddha is in first jhana all the time....maybe he sits whenever he wants to go to 4th jhana. I don't really know. My view is that the buddha had attained the goal, had crossed the river, and so could have sunk the raft but he was not an ordinary arahant in that he accepted the task of teaching. His teaching on jhana might have been done as an example to people about jhana....that he might have done jhanas just as a teaching tool but really didn't have to at all....I think that the buddha had put down the burden and was not effected by any sort of "needing" of anything....his teaching in my view was not undertaken by some kind of "need" but rather out of his compassion.

None of this and none of what you have said bears directly on whether first jhana can be attained while walking. What does bear on it is direct experience. Walking meditation (and mindfulness while doing other things as well) is a standard thing in buddhism. People should do it more and see how far they can take it....people don't do it much....probably because they listen to people who think that sitting is the cat's meow....most people think of walking meditation as an add-on to their sitting practice and they don't have time or faith that much can be achieved there. I started meditation as primarily a moving type of meditation and used sitting as an add-on with most of my time done in the moving meditation. One can go way a lot farther in moving mediation than they think but it does take longer for the results to be seen....but in my experience the results are spectacular.
A lot depends on what one thinks jhana is. You have a very rigid view of it and it seems a view that includes the idea that "only this is right and all else is worthless".
chownah
And yet, the sutta you referenced as evidence for entering jhana while walking, actually is the Buddha piling grass and sitting down to enter jhana, going from jhanas 1 to 4, and then getting up and walking, so sitting has to be an important factor, otherwise he would do it while standing. But, please continue to rationalize away your views.

I will wait for someone to provide a sutta of someone entering jhanas while walking or eating. So far every sutta I read has to do with sitting down in a secluded area, setting mindfulness to the fore with a straightened back/spine.

edit:

And lastly, Bhikkhu Bodhi note:
Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:

Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/an ... hanas/3368
Last edited by budo on Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:05 pm

And lastly, Bhikkhu Bodhi note:
Bhikkhu Bodhi notes:

Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/an ... hanas/3368

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by chownah » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:43 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:51 pm

And yet, the sutta you referenced as evidence for entering jhana while walking, actually is the Buddha piling grass and sitting down to enter jhana, going from jhanas 1 to 4, and then getting up and walking, so sitting has to be an important factor, otherwise he would do it while standing. But, please continue to rationalize away your views.

I will wait for someone to provide a sutta of someone entering jhanas while walking or eating. So far every sutta I read has to do with sitting down in a secluded area, setting mindfulness to the fore with a straightened back/spine.
AS I said before, maybe the buddha sits when he wants to go to jhana 4. Maybe he is in jhana 1 all the time. AS I said, I don't claim to know the state of the mind of the buddha so these possibilities are just conjecture.

Also, just because the buddha is reported to have sat down and done jhana does not mean that he could not do jhana 1 standing up.

As to "rationalizing away your views"....this is what we are both doing....this is where most views come from.

Also, a lot hinges on exactly what views people have as to what jhana actually is. While your views are fairly wide spread they are by no means the only views accepted.

And as I said before.....let experience be your guide....don't write off how far any acceptable method might take you without givine it a good try.

chownah

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Volo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:05 pm

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:05 pm
And lastly, Bhikkhu Bodhi note:
And what do we learn from VBB's note? 1. VBB (in contrast to Budo) understands that the sutta says exactly that the Buddha was walking while in jhāna (this was already clear from the way he translated the sutta), 2. Commentary takes it in the same way, although tika disagrees. And however interesting is the opinion of VBB himself (although he refers to some obscure "dominant understanding") it's only his opinion. The main thing is that he (with his pali knowledge) understands the texts in the way I said. Texts are solid, his (and Budo's) ideas are only his ideas.

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