Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

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chownah
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by chownah » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:42 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:35 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:30 pm
Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.
This excerpt from an3.63 is talking about fourth jhana.......the topic of discussion is about first jhana.
chownah
From the same sutta
After the meal, on my return from alms-round, I enter a wood. I gather up some grass or leaves into a pile, and sit down cross-legged, with my body straight, and establish mindfulness right there. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption,
So you see, he attains seclusion. After you emerge from jhanas, there is an after-glow that even changes the complexion on your face. This after-glow can last anywhere from minutes to several days depending on the purity of your mind. Therefore doing walking meditation after jhanas will lead to more insight because the mind is coming from purity of mindfulness.
I see, he attains seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities. One need not be sitting passively to attain seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities.

I think this after glow claim has nothing to do with the topic...but it is an interesting assertion.
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budo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:46 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:42 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:35 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:30 pm

This excerpt from an3.63 is talking about fourth jhana.......the topic of discussion is about first jhana.
chownah
From the same sutta
After the meal, on my return from alms-round, I enter a wood. I gather up some grass or leaves into a pile, and sit down cross-legged, with my body straight, and establish mindfulness right there. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption,
So you see, he attains seclusion. After you emerge from jhanas, there is an after-glow that even changes the complexion on your face. This after-glow can last anywhere from minutes to several days depending on the purity of your mind. Therefore doing walking meditation after jhanas will lead to more insight because the mind is coming from purity of mindfulness.
I see, he attains seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities. One need not be sitting passively to attain seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities.

I think this after glow claim has nothing to do with the topic...but it is an interesting assertion.
chownah
Well he literally said he first sits down, attains the jhanas, and then afterwards if he wants to, he can walk around. Are you purposely denying that?

chownah
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by chownah » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:46 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:46 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:42 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:35 pm


From the same sutta



So you see, he attains seclusion. After you emerge from jhanas, there is an after-glow that even changes the complexion on your face. This after-glow can last anywhere from minutes to several days depending on the purity of your mind. Therefore doing walking meditation after jhanas will lead to more insight because the mind is coming from purity of mindfulness.
I see, he attains seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities. One need not be sitting passively to attain seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities.

I think this after glow claim has nothing to do with the topic...but it is an interesting assertion.
chownah
Well he literally said he first sits down, attains the jhanas, and then afterwards if he wants to, he can walk around. Are you purposely denying that?
I am really surprised that you would ask me if I am porpoisly denying that the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwords take a walk. Certainly he could do that. I don't see how you could construe that my post was in denial (purposely or not) concerning the buddha's ability to do that.....of course the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwards take a walk!!!!! :shrug:

What I don't see is what this has to do with whether it is possible to walk, talk, eat, etc. in first jhana.
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budo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm

chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:46 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:46 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:42 pm

I see, he attains seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities. One need not be sitting passively to attain seclusion from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities.

I think this after glow claim has nothing to do with the topic...but it is an interesting assertion.
chownah
Well he literally said he first sits down, attains the jhanas, and then afterwards if he wants to, he can walk around. Are you purposely denying that?
I am really surprised that you would ask me if I am porpoisly denying that the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwords take a walk. Certainly he could do that. I don't see how you could construe that my post was in denial (purposely or not) concerning the buddha's ability to do that.....of course the buddha could sit down, enter jhana, and afterwards take a walk!!!!! :shrug:

What I don't see is what this has to do with whether it is possible to walk, talk, eat, etc. in first jhana.
chownah

Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?

If he could remain in first jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down and not just stay in first jhana until he dies? And yet, he sits down and enters first jhana after eating.

So to develop and remain in the jhana factors one needs to be secluded from sensuality (the 6 senses), seeing as how the purpose of jhanas is to cease perception, why would someone walk around in jhanas unless their goal wasn't to cease perceptions? What happens instead is that the Buddha ceases perceptions, finishes his practice, and then gets up and walks around with the purity of mindfulness (attained earlier in fourth jhana), that fades away over time, thus requiring him to sit down every day to enter jhanas again.

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Volo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Volo » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:19 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?
Where the sutta says he could enter while eating? It's only the 4 postures that are mentioned. But if you are saying it is not possible to be in jhāna while walking, then, please, provide sutta reference that is not possible. Your doubts cannot overweight AN 3.63

PS And as I said in the beginning: entering jhāna while walking is by no means an easy things, it's actually much more difficult than while sitting, and not everyone who can enter jhāna in sitting posture would be able to do it in walking. It's only for experts.
Last edited by Volo on Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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budo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:07 am

Volo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:19 pm
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?
Where the sutta says he could enter while eating? It's only the 4 postures that are mentioned. But if you are saying it is not possible to be in jhāna while walking, then, please, provide sutta reference that is not possible. Your doubts cannot overweight AN 3.63
I don't think you understood my post, I asked chowna that question. I am saying that one can enter jhana in sitting or laying, and not walking. Please provide a sutta where one can enter jhana while walking. If one can enter jhana while walking, then why would the Buddha sit down, and not enter jhana while walking after his meal.

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budo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:13 am

Volo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:19 pm

PS And as I said in the beginning: entering jhāna while walking is by no means an easy things, it's actually much more difficult than while sitting, and not everyone who can enter jhāna in sitting posture would be able to do it in walking. It's only for experts.
Source in any of the 4 nikayas of a monk entering jhana while walking please

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Volo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Volo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:19 am

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:07 am
I don't think you understood my post, I asked chowna that question. I am saying that one can enter jhana in sitting or laying, and not walking. Please provide a sutta where one can enter jhana while walking. If one can enter jhana while walking, then why would the Buddha sit down, and not enter jhana while walking after his meal.
I already did. Buddha describes 4 jhānas, and then says "while I'm in this state", but you keep inventing some arguments to save you ideas.
Source in any of the 4 nikayas of a monk entering jhana while walking please
The burden to prove something lies on the one who makes the statement, not on those who disagree. I don't even have to give reference to AN 3.63. My position can be very simple: Usual description of entering jhāna is abandoning 5 hindrances without mentioning a specific posture. You are saying abandoning 5 hindrances is possible only in 3 postures. Okay, provide reference for that.

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budo
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:25 am

Volo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:19 am
budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:07 am
I don't think you understood my post, I asked chowna that question. I am saying that one can enter jhana in sitting or laying, and not walking. Please provide a sutta where one can enter jhana while walking. If one can enter jhana while walking, then why would the Buddha sit down, and not enter jhana while walking after his meal.
I already did. Buddha describes 4 jhānas, and then says "while I'm in this state", but you keep inventing some arguments to save you ideas.
You already did what? I haven't responded to you in this thread, only to chowhna and sarathw. Chowna's sutta link is after the Buddha emerged from fourth jhana. Also it's called deductive reasoning and process of elimination, you should learn it.
Volo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:19 am
Source in any of the 4 nikayas of a monk entering jhana while walking please
The burden to prove something lies on the one who makes the statement, not on those who disagree. I don't even have to give reference to AN 3.63. My position can be very simple: Usual description of entering jhāna is abandoning 5 hindrances without mentioning a specific posture. You are saying abandoning 5 hindrances is possible only in 3 postures. Okay, provide reference for that.
No, the Burden of proof is on someone claiming something exists, not doesnt exist. I can't ask you to prove superman doesn't exist, this fallacy is called "Proving Non-Existence". You claim that one can enter jhana while walking, I'm asking for sutta evidence.

And for clarification, I am saying one can enter jhana in 2 postures, sitting and laying, and I'm not even entirely convinced one can enter jhana in laying down, the only source for that I would have is paranibbana sutta when the Buddha is assumed to be in the lion's posture.

atipattoh
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by atipattoh » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:51 am

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?
I think there is a need to distinguish the different between immersion and entering. Immersion would mean to enter and stay for a period of time; while entering, he can come out in between.

Take for example, when you eat, while you get caught in thinking about certain subject, you do not realise that you have finish your meal.

Similarly, a meditator can enter 1st jhana and exit in between walking, eating and maybe talking. Say that there is 10,000 moments to walk a step, the moment that is used to instruct the walking is 1/10 of that moments, then the other 9,000 moments he is in jhana. If one, is to take jhana factors as criteria, then within this 90% of time, they are there. That is probably the reason for one, being able to walk, but the rupa nimitta is present.

The after "glow", can fade away, fast or slow. Even to clean up toilet after meal, if he does not guard the nimitta, the after glow fade away, fast.
Or if he get caught in tactile piti, it speeds up the fading process.

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:53 am

atipattoh wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:51 am
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:07 pm
Well if he could enter jhana while walking or eating, why would he sit down? Why would he not just enter jhana as he's eating instead of waiting until after he's done eating like the suttas says?
I think there is a need to distinguish the different between immersion and entering. Immersion would mean to enter and stay for a period of time; while entering, he can come out in between.

Take for example, when you eat, while you get caught in thinking about certain subject, you do not realise that you have finish your meal.

Similarly, a meditator can enter 1st jhana and exit in between walking, eating and maybe talking. Say that there is 10,000 moments to walk a step, the mement that is used to instruct the walking is 1/10 of that moments, then the other 9,000 moments he is in jhana. If one, is to take jhana factors as criteria, then within this 90% of time, they are there. That is probably the reason for one, being able to walk, but the rupa nimitta is present.

The after "glow", can fade away, fast or slow. Even to clean up toilet after meal, if he does not guard the nimitta, the after glow fade away, fast.
Or if he get caught in tactile piti, it speeds up the fading process.
It's just the level of mindfulness. Fourth jhana is considered purity of mindfulness, which means when one comes out of fourth jhana the mindfulness starts to fade away, especially as sounds and the senses start coming in. This is what I mean by "after-glow", as in the purity of mindfulness caused by one-pointed concentration slowly fades away after emerging from fourth jhana.

But it is wrong to say that one can enter jhana while walking, or is in jhana while walking (unless one can provide sutta evidence)

atipattoh
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by atipattoh » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:12 am

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:53 am
It's just the level of mindfulness. Fourth jhana is considered purity of mindfulness, which means when one comes out of fourth jhana the mindfulness starts to fade away, especially as sounds and the senses start coming in. This is what I mean by "after-glow", as in the purity of mindfulness caused by one-pointed concentration slowly fades away after emerging from fourth jhana.

But it is wrong to say that one can enter jhana while walking, or is in jhana while walking (unless one can provide sutta evidence)
What is the reason that "sounds and the senses start coming in", causing "after-glow" fading away?

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by budo » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:31 am

atipattoh wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:12 am
budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:53 am
It's just the level of mindfulness. Fourth jhana is considered purity of mindfulness, which means when one comes out of fourth jhana the mindfulness starts to fade away, especially as sounds and the senses start coming in. This is what I mean by "after-glow", as in the purity of mindfulness caused by one-pointed concentration slowly fades away after emerging from fourth jhana.

But it is wrong to say that one can enter jhana while walking, or is in jhana while walking (unless one can provide sutta evidence)
What is the reason that "sounds and the senses start coming in", causing "after-glow" fading away?
Even before that happens there are many thorns that are unpleasant that arise, vittaka/viccara (verbal fabrications), bodily fabrications, mental fabrications. There are many unpleasant things coming in, I linked to a sutta on page 1 where the Buddha explains unpleasant factors in the mind.

Also there is another sutta called thorns where the Buddha discusses various thorns that affect mindfulness and pleasant abidings. And another sutta where there is too much noise so the monks leave the park to go somewhere else to meditate and the Buddha praises them.

atipattoh
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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by atipattoh » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:49 am

budo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:31 am
I linked to a sutta on page 1 where the Buddha explains unpleasant factors in the mind.
You mean this, https://suttacentral.net/sn41.8/en/sujato
...Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. And whenever I want, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … I enter and remain in the second absorption. And whenever I want , with the fading away of rapture … I enter and remain in the third absorption. And whenever I want , giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption...
What do you think of the meaning of "whenever i want", would it put as a barrier for "whenever i don't want" ?

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Re: Can we remain in first Jhana while walking, talking and eating?

Post by Calmoid » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:08 am

budo wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:34 pm
No because you can't be one pointed and doing multiple things. One pointed means one object connected and maintained. The mind needs to be stilled, it cannot be stilled if one is moving around or doing activities.
“Well sir, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. And whenever I want, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … I enter and remain in the second absorption. And whenever I want, with the fading away of rapture … I enter and remain in the third absorption. And whenever I want, giving up pleasure and pain … I enter and remain in the fourth absorption. And so, sir, since I know and see like this, why should I rely on faith in another ascetic or brahmin who claims that there is a state of immersion without placing the mind and keeping it connected; that there is the cessation of placing the mind and keeping it connected?”
https://suttacentral.net/sn41.8/en/sujato

Another reason why vipassana jhanas (based on momentary concentration) is non-sense.
B Sujato has a quite Liberal translation of the term "savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ" = "placing the mind and keeping it connected".

savitakkaṃ = accompanied by reasoning / thought / reflection
Savicāra = accompanied by investigation

Following a more literal translation of B Bodhi.

"Well, venerable sir, to whatever extent I wish, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. [S.IV.299] Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna…. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the fading away as well of rapture … I enter and dwell in the third jhāna…. Then, to whatever extent I wish, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain … I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna."

//

I get the same message from reading that passage " being secluded from sensual pleasures and unwholesome states (which a untrained person is not) , one experiences rapture and happiness."

Sitting as well as less sensory stimulation are not mentioned as prerequisites for any jhana. Being secluded from sensual pleasures and unwholesome states are stated to be the only prerequisites of the first jhana. So it can happen in any posture and everywhere.
According to the logic of some people then whenever eg an arahan walked, stood, lied down or entered a village, his mind must have been full of sensuality and unwholesome states and void of any rapture and happiness. That's of course not the case.

According to the suttas, You can't talk in the second jhana (the sankharas of speech have stopped) , as well you can't move after the 4th jhana (bodily sankharas have stopped). Mental sankharas are active till the cessation of sanna vedana, "8th jhana". Another mistake of Ajahn Brahm.

Ajahn Brahm (and others) interpretated many of the pali words in the sutta Jhana descriptions in a way which contradicts the same and other suttas as well experience. That is more than clear to some (of course not to them and those who share their views) who compared his interpretations with standard literal pali translations and especially if you check how those terms are used in other suttas, context etc as has been done extensively in previous discussions.

That Ajahn Brahm makes mistakes is his problem. That's his kamma. As well people believing in his mistakes is their kamma. No problem for me. That people have problems with him making mistakes, like eg f Frank seems to have, is their problem, their Kamma.
Last edited by Calmoid on Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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