What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

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newbee
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What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by newbee » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:43 am

Hi all,

from this discussion : viewtopic.php?f=25&t=33508

Rebirth in a realm (deva, human, lower..), comely appearance, birth in a prosperous family and so on, is due to an individual's meritorious past kamma. And unwholesome previous acts have corresponding results.

Why does one become a pandaka(a gay man) according to traditional Buddhism?
Are there any specific actions/kamma/causes that cause this?

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retrofuturist
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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:51 am

Greetings newbee,

Since pandaka doesn't strictly mean gay man, it's going to be difficult to answer your question.

There's existing topics where the meaning of the Pali term is explored. Maybe read those and then come back and tell us if you're actually referring to a pandaka or a gay man...?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:09 am

newbee wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:43 am
Why does one become a pandaka(a gay man) according to traditional Buddhism?
Are there any specific actions/kamma/causes that cause this?
MN 135, the most quoted sutta about ideas of past life determinism, appears to be gender neutral.
There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever reborn.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The most basic teachings about kamma contain two results of kamma, namely, happiness & unhappiness. I think this is what kamma teachings reflect. Even when the results of kamma are described as human, godly, ghost, animal & hell; these realms are divided into two realms: (i) happy realms; and (ii) woeful realms. Unless there is something inherently happy or woeful about a certain sexual gender or sexual orientation, personally, i think gender or sexual orientation would not be included as a result of kamma. Regards :)
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newbee
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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by newbee » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:51 am
Greetings newbee,

Since pandaka doesn't strictly mean gay man, it's going to be difficult to answer your question.

There's existing topics where the meaning of the Pali term is explored. Maybe read those and then come back and tell us if you're actually referring to a pandaka or a gay man...?

Metta,
Paul. :)

Hi Paul,

I assumed pandaka meant a gay person.

I read an old discussion ( viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1698 ) and one of articles quoted there ( https://www.academia.edu/2210944/The_Tw ... ember_2016_ ). The reasoning in the last reply is worth examining.
This is my source, but I take a different opinion than Thanissaro Bhikkhu on the matter. I think that pandaka refers to homosexuals, in addition to transgender people and eunuchs; It's perhaps an ancient Indian way of saying 'LGBT'.

Some of the acts described in the quote above can be construed as homosexual, such as gratifying oneself by fellatio on other men, yet other homosexual acts--namely, anal sex--are absent from the description. I think that this is the case because, perhaps, anal sex wasn't necessarily a common sex act among homosexual men of that place and era. There exist gay men even today who prefer oral to anal sex, and sex acts, even potentially deviant ones, can often be shaped by the larger culture.

So, the acts described in the quote above could potentially represent the same people, motivated by the same same-sex desire as modern homosexuals, yet expressed through different sex acts that are less central to our understanding of gay activities, but perhaps more central to an ancient Indian interpretation of them..
There are many views about whether this term refers to a gay person. So, I'll have to modify my question.

According to traditional Buddhism, due to what reason(s) are some men/women attracted to persons of same gender and not attracted to persons of opposite gender?

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by newbee » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:09 am
newbee wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:43 am
Why does one become a pandaka(a gay man) according to traditional Buddhism?
Are there any specific actions/kamma/causes that cause this?
MN 135, the most quoted sutta about ideas of past life determinism, appears to be gender neutral.
There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever reborn.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The most basic teachings about kamma contain two results of kamma, namely, happiness & unhappiness. I think this is what kamma teachings reflect. Even when the results of kamma are described as human, godly, ghost, animal & hell; these realms are divided into two realms: (i) happy realms; and (ii) woeful realms. Unless there is something inherently happy or woeful about a certain sexual gender or sexual orientation, personally, i think gender or sexual orientation would not be included as a result of kamma. Regards :)
Thanks DooDoot,

Could you answer the question in my previous reply.
According to traditional Buddhism, due to what reason(s) are some men/women attracted to persons of same gender and not attracted to persons of opposite gender?

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:10 am

newbee wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:06 am
According to traditional Buddhism, due to what reason(s) are some men/women attracted to persons of same gender and not attracted to persons of opposite gender?
Thanks Newbee. I have no answer to your question. I have not read anything in the Pali suttas that answers the above question. I think the teaching of the Buddha was more focused on the Path. While there is no mention of homosexuality in the Pali suttas; I think homosexual people can still follow the Buddhist path for laypeople. Kind regards :)

MN 12 refers to how people have different inclinations due to being composed of different combinations of elements (dhatu). Thats all I can think of.
13. (4) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the world with its many and different elements. That too is a Tathagata's power...

14. (5) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is how beings have different inclinations. That too is a Tathagata's power...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ntbb.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by santa100 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:12 pm

newbee wrote:Why does one become a pandaka(a gay man) according to traditional Buddhism?
Are there any specific actions/kamma/causes that cause this?
Obviously one'd need to attain the supernormal power of seeing peoples's previous lives in order to know for sure. For the mean time, you might want to check out MN 135 and MN 136 to get an idea on what type of action might lead to what type of destination. Notice the Buddha only mentioned the concrete types of wholesome/unwholesome actions that directly affect one's progress on the Path. Many other actions were not mentioned because they're in-determinate in affecting one's process of cultivation. Case in point, sexual orientation, one could be born a straight man, but engaging in killing, stealing, despising others, etc. and hence ends up in future woeful states. On the other hand, one could be born gay, but abstain from those acts, hence will arrive at future wholesome destinations.

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by Bundokji » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:13 pm

santa100 wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:12 pm
Case in point, sexual orientation, one could be born a straight man, but engaging in killing, stealing, despising others, etc. and hence ends up in future woeful states. On the other hand, one could be born gay, but abstain from those acts, hence will arrive at future wholesome destinations.
:goodpost:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by 2600htz » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:30 pm

Hello:

I would say lust for male forms comes from "gazing often the features of a man".
While lust for female forms comes from "gazing often the features of a woman".

In the case of a gay man, ummm, its a difficult question. If being gay is not negative kamma, maybe its a being that while having lust for male form, it also has a disposition to things that are more easily experienced by men (like a disposition to physical work, being dominant, leading, etc.)

If being gay its somehow negative kamma, maybe its because that in order to have lust for the same kind of form you are taking, comes from being selfish in the past (like a bodybuilder looking himself in the mirror all day).

Just theories, maybe its about random biology.

Regards.

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by form » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:39 pm

This may be off topic a bit but somewhat related. When the sutta mentioned lust for male or femalr form, does it just refer to form? As we know when a person is sexually arosed, it is not just visual, but also smell, sound, mind, taste, touch? If so why the sutta only said form of a man or women?

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by bodom » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:44 am

form wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:39 pm
This may be off topic a bit but somewhat related. When the sutta mentioned lust for male or femalr form, does it just refer to form? As we know when a person is sexually arosed, it is not just visual, but also smell, sound, mind, taste, touch? If so why the sutta only said form of a man or women?
See this sutta which goes into more detail:
RŪPĀDĪ - EKAKA VAGGA (Cittapariyādānavaggo)
Matter and others

I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anāthapiṇḍika in Jeta's grove in Sāvatthi. The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus and said:

1. “Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The form of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the first.

2. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The sound of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the second.

3. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The smell of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man This is the third.

4. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The taste of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fourth.

5. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of man as that of woman. The touch of a woman indeed captivates the mind of a man. This is the fifth.

6. “Bhikkhus, I do not know of a form that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The form of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the sixth..

7. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a sound that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The sound of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the seventh

8. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a smell that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The smell of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman This is the eighth..

9. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a taste that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The taste of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the nineth.

10. Bhikkhus, I do not know of a touch that captivates the mind of woman as that of man. The touch of a man indeed captivates the mind of a woman. This is the tenth

http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html
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form
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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by form » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:17 am

Thank you bodom for your reply.

I remember this sutta from AN. All the senses were mentioned here.

So when in other sutta when mentioned form (only) of the opposite sex is tempting a person, we can assume that the others like sounds, tactile etc. are equally present? If so, why didnt the buddha mentioned them together, or is there translation gaps from the original pali words? Or did he think visual is the greatest stimulus of sexual lust?

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by Volo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:06 am

There are two types of gays: 1) real gays, who never feel attracted to a woman, even in a dream (I don't think this class is very numerous), 2) those who became gays due to circumstances (e.g. living in predominantly male environment, having problems in making relationships with an opposite sex, etc). Since lust is still there, but cannot be directed to women, it gets directed to men. They think more and more about other men and feel more and more attracted to them, since as Buddha said whatever a person "frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind".

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Re: What (kamma) causes a person to be Pandaka?

Post by form » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:08 am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhis ... rientation

There are lots if info in the above link. Check it out and see.

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