Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:20 pm

I'll better end with Mahasi quote )

In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.

With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.


8-)

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:28 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:08 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:16 am
Isn't that even more reason for not thinking that it is particularly significant - that it turns up in these smackdown contests with Brahma?
Whether it is a smackdown contest is a moot point but it is clear that the Buddha therein is explaining what makes an Ariya superior to any other being in Samsara, i think Ariyan Knowledge is very significant and takes the central stage in this doctrine, i am quite sure you would agree.
I don't agree, precisely because those suttas involve somewhat humorous interactions (which I termed "smackdowns"j for lack of a better term...) with Brahma. I therefore would not read too much doctrinal significance into them, but I can see that some do find them inspiring.

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:35 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:20 pm
I'll better end with Mahasi quote )

In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.

With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.


8-)
Sure lets end it with a Mahasi Sayadaw quote;
In the following discourse, nibbāna is said to be that state that is the opposite of conditioned phenomena. According to the texts:
Where water, earth, fire, and air do not gain a footing:
It is from here, that the streams [of phenomena] turn back,
and mental objects], nor anywhere else in the sense consciousnesses [of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and perceiving. This is the end of suffering].733

A meditator proceeds by observing the most obvious object from among these twelve sense bases, consciousnesses, and mental factors. But at the moment of path and fruition, the meditator stops perceiving the object and instead experiences the total cessation of all of these objects. This experience of cessation is nibbāna. It is very important to understand this.
The sense bases actually represent all conditioned phenomena. So the cessation of the sense bases refers to the cessation of all conditioned phenomena. In the following discourse, nibbāna is said to be that state that is the opposite of conditioned phenomena. According to the texts:
Where water, earth, fire, and air do not gain a footing:
It is from here, that the streams [of phenomena] turn back,
Here that the round [of the defilements, kamma, and its result] no longer revolves.
There, name-and-form ceases.734
Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous,
That’s where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul—
There “name-and-form” [mental and physical phenomena] are wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.735
The statement that nibbāna is “all-luminous” in this passage means that it is completely cleansed of all defilements.
Similar metaphors are used in such expressions as “the light of wisdom” ( paññā-āloka), “the luster of wisdom” ( paññā-obhāsa), and “the torch of wisdom” ( paññāpajjota). It is in this same sense that the Buddha said, “Bhikkhus, the mind is luminous.” The sense here is that nibbāna is always luminous. The mind and wisdom, which possess an innate luminosity, can be soiled by defiling phenomena. Nibbāna, however, which is the cessation of defilements or conditioned phenomena, can never be connected with defiling phenomena. Therefore there is no way that any of these phenomena can soil or defile nibbāna, just as the sky can never be painted. As a result it is said that “nibbāna is all-luminous.” To be straightforward, the meaning of the commentary and subcommentary is only that nibbāna is absolutely not connected to the defilements, or is completely cleansed of them.
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"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:06 pm

Sure lets end it with a Mahasi Sayadaw quote;
I hope you do understand that he doesn't mean that "vinnyanam adissanam" = "nibbana" 8-)

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by cappuccino » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:38 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:06 pm
that he doesn't mean that "vinnyanam adissanam" = "nibbana"
it would not be annihilation, hence what is it?

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:22 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:06 pm
Sure lets end it with a Mahasi Sayadaw quote;
I hope you do understand that he doesn't mean that "vinnyanam adissanam" = "nibbana" 8-)
clearly that is what it means, do you want to read the chapter? It is called Experiencing Nibbana.
Vinnanam Anidassanam is a "There" much like that the Nibbana Sutta; "there is that base, monks, where neither fire, water, earth and wind get no footing. And it is the same as the Mahaviharin Intrepretation.
In the Mahāvihāra's understanding viññāṇaṃ does not mean consciousness in this context. Instead, it is defined as viññātabbaṃ, a verbal derivative that can be taken as a noun ('that which must be cognized') or an adjective ('to be cognized', 'must be cognized'). If we take it as a noun, then the famous line viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ will be translated, "the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating." Taking it as an adjective qualifying anidassana (well-attested in the Suttas as a synonym of nibbāna), we get, "The Unseeable that must be cognized, that is without end, that is all-illuminating".

Either way, there seems to be no reason to doubt that the four terms in this passage are being used exactly as they are used elsewhere in the Suttas, i.e., as designations for nibbāna. The unlikelihood of the viññāṇaṃ in viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ referring to consciousness is evident from the last two lines of the same verse:

ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati
viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī ti

Here (in nibbana), name and matter cease without remainder;
Through the cessation of consciousness, these [name and matter] cease here.
What you are experiencing is clear case of Denial and clinging to your theory of non-existence of the Unmade.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:10 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:47 pm
I would be wary of reading too much into viññanam anidassanam, which only seems to appear in a couple of places in the canon:
I don't think the fact that it only appears in a couple of places is a valid reason to dismiss or ignore it. As another example, the mutual dependence of conciousness and name+form only appears in a couple of places, yet people have built whole theories of DO on it. :shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:39 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:22 am
clearly that is what it means, do you want to read the chapter? It is called Experiencing Nibbana.
If we take it as a noun, then the famous line viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ will be translated, "the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating." Taking it as an adjective qualifying anidassana (well-attested in the Suttas as a synonym of nibbāna), we get, "The Unseeable that must be cognized, that is without end, that is all-illuminating".
How then to be with "all-illuminating"? Illumination is light, which is rūpa. There cannot be any light/rūpa in Nibbāna.

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:51 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:39 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:22 am
clearly that is what it means, do you want to read the chapter? It is called Experiencing Nibbana.
If we take it as a noun, then the famous line viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ will be translated, "the thing that must be cognized, that is unseeable, without end, all-illuminating." Taking it as an adjective qualifying anidassana (well-attested in the Suttas as a synonym of nibbāna), we get, "The Unseeable that must be cognized, that is without end, that is all-illuminating".
How then to be with "all-illuminating"? Illumination is light, which is rūpa. There cannot be any light/rūpa in Nibbāna.
The Blessed One describes as illumination not only the illumination which is obtained by means of form. But a Tathagata describes as illuminous whatever, however, whenever and whereinsoever there is illumination
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Zom » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:54 pm

clearly that is what it means, do you want to read the chapter? It is called Experiencing Nibbana.
Yes, impermanent conditioned arahant's consiousness aka "vinnyana adissana" is experiencing nibbana. That is what he says, and all other scholar monks .) The consiousness itself is NOT nibbana.

Nibbana is not viññāṇa. Really, it just isn’t.
Last edited by Zom on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:55 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:51 pm
The Blessed One describes as illumination not only the illumination which is obtained by means of form. But a Tathagata describes as illumination in however, whenever and whereinsoever there is illumination
Can you specify? I remember there is sutta, where Buddha is talking about light of wisdom, but wisdom is nāma, so again doesn't fit into Nibbāna.
Last edited by Volovsky on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:56 pm

Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:54 pm
clearly that is what it means, do you want to read the chapter? It is called Experiencing Nibbana.
Yes, impermanent conditioned arahant's consiousness aka "vinnyana adissana" is experiencing nibbana. That is what he says, and all other scholar monks .) The consiousness itself is NOT nibbana.
he is talking about attainment of sotapatti magga there.

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How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:03 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:55 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:51 pm
The Blessed One describes as illumination not only the illumination which is obtained by means of form. But a Tathagata describes as illumination in however, whenever and whereinsoever there is illumination
Can you specify? I remember there is sutta, where Buddha is talking about light of wisdom, but wisdom is nāma, so again doesn't fit into Nibbāna.
There is no specifying this. That dimension where there is neither wind, water, fire or earth, neither this world nor the next, no coming nor staying or going, none of the formless dimensions, timeless, non-persistent, constant, that which the wise discern by means of a well cultivated mind, that base can be said to be illuminous in it's own terms.

I can't describe it with words, it is up to you to make the effort and see for yourself. It is not a darkness, i can say that much but i can't explain it in terms of color. If i were to try describing it in terms of color it would be more of the same type of explanation that begot this answer in the first place.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:14 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:03 pm
The Blessed One describes as illumination not only the illumination which is obtained by means of form. But a Tathagata describes as illumination in however, whenever and whereinsoever there is illumination
Is it a quotation from sutta? 'Cause I can't find it.

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Re: Are Rapture and Pleasure (Piti Sukha) Experienced in Nibbana? It Seems So!

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:19 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:14 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:03 pm
The Blessed One describes as illumination not only the illumination which is obtained by means of form. But a Tathagata describes as illumination in however, whenever and whereinsoever there is illumination
Is it a quotation from sutta? 'Cause I can't find it.
no this is not a quotation from the Sutta but the question is analogue to the question answered by the Buddha in the mn59;
"It may happen, Ananda, that Wanderers of other sects will be saying this: 'The recluse Gotama speaks of the Cessation of Perception and Feeling and describes it as pleasure. What is this (pleasure) and how is this (a pleasure)?'

"Those who say so, should be told: 'The Blessed One describes as pleasure not only the feeling of pleasure. But a Tathagata describes as pleasure whenever and whereinsoever it is obtained.'"
Cessation of Namarupa implies cessation of Consciousness as well as contact, form and feeling. So it is reasonable to assume that the question is rightfully answered thus.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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