Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

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2600htz
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by 2600htz » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:12 pm

Hello:

Mmm i don`t know, my guess is that a sotapanna can`t commit suicide.
And my other guess is that it is a point that can`t be proven by the intellect or sutta quotes, or Nanavira Thera would have not come to that conclusion.

Regards.

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Volovsky
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:39 am

One passage in MN 125 might question, whether arahant would commit suicide.

Buddha describing arahant says:
30.“That bhikkhu is able to endure cold and heat, hunger and thirst, and contact with gadflies, mosquitoes, wind, the sun, and creeping things; he is able to endure ill-spoken, unwelcome words and arisen bodily [137] feelings that are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, distressing, and menacing to life.
Committing suicide due to a severe sickness would actually mean, he is not able to endure these feelings.

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budo
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by budo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:37 am

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:39 am
One passage in MN 125 might question, whether arahant would commit suicide.

Buddha describing arahant says:
30.“That bhikkhu is able to endure cold and heat, hunger and thirst, and contact with gadflies, mosquitoes, wind, the sun, and creeping things; he is able to endure ill-spoken, unwelcome words and arisen bodily [137] feelings that are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, distressing, and menacing to life.
Committing suicide due to a severe sickness would actually mean, he is not able to endure these feelings.
At the end of the day it's an issue of conflicting suttas and translations.

Eitherway, we can safely conclude that a noble one besides an arahant can commit suicide (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami). Arahants will remain unknown unless someone has really convincing evidence.

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DooDoot
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:51 am

Nwad wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:49 am
... there is no conditions in Sottapana mind to suicide...
In the suttas, many monks ended life because they saw life as worthless or without substance; such as monks who practised contemplation of foulness of the body.
Nwad wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:49 am
because he knows suffering as it is, he dont see it as : "i am suffer", but "there is suffering"
Where did you learn this? Based on the suttas, suffering depends on the "I". If there is no "I" there is no suffering.
Nwad wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:49 am
and it would be very selfish to suicide when your life is a field for the merit of many people..
What people? A reason why a sotāpanna might end their life is because people don't understand the Dhamma thus they feel life has no purpose.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:40 pm
I hope people can help interpret Channovada Sutta of the Majjhima, because its opaque in ultimate meaning to me.
The Channovada Sutta says Channo was blameless because he let go of life without desiring another life or desiring another world, i.e., not desiring another "kaya" (group of aggregates).

For example, consider a person with a broken heart due to a broken love affair. This person commits suicide because they wish for the love affair but don't have it. This person commits suicide because they desire "another world" or "another body".

Or consider Nanavira. Nanavira committed suicide because he wished to practise Dhamma in a more suitable condition in another life. Personally, I think this was blameworthy because, unlike Channa, Navavira desired another "body".

Or if a person believes in heaven and takes their life, believing they will go to heaven, unlike Channa, this is blameworthy, because they desire another world or body.

But, imo, when a sotāpanna views life as worthless, meaningless and without substance or purpose and they do not wish for any other type of life or world, if they end their life, they are blameless.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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Volovsky
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:42 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:37 am
Eitherway, we can safely conclude that a noble one besides an arahant can commit suicide (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami).
I'm not sure... What are the evidences for this safe conclusion?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:28 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:42 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:37 am
Eitherway, we can safely conclude that a noble one besides an arahant can commit suicide (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami).
I'm not sure... What are the evidences for this safe conclusion?
I am done with this topic because i think the immediately related Sutta material has been more or less presented.

I just want to say not sure is alright, not sure is a safe position.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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budo
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by budo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:28 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:42 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:37 am
Eitherway, we can safely conclude that a noble one besides an arahant can commit suicide (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami).
I'm not sure... What are the evidences for this safe conclusion?
The suttas discussed earlier in this thread of noble ones committing suicide. The dispute was whether they were arahants or non-returners at the time of the act.

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Volovsky
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:45 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:28 pm
The suttas discussed earlier in this thread of noble ones committing suicide. The dispute was whether they were arahants or non-returners at the time of the act.
If you mean Channa, Godhika, Vakkali I think puthujjana is not excluded there at all. What are the arguments for non-returner?

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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by budo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:49 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:45 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:28 pm
The suttas discussed earlier in this thread of noble ones committing suicide. The dispute was whether they were arahants or non-returners at the time of the act.
If you mean Channa, Godhika, Vakkali I think puthujjana is not excluded there at all. What are the arguments for non-returner?
"Then Sāriputta went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, Venerable Channa has slit his wrists. Where has he been reborn in his next life?” “Sāriputta, didn’t the mendicant Channa declare his blamelessness to you personally?” “Sir, there is a Vajjian village named Pubbavijjhana where Channa had families with whom he was friendly, intimate, and familiar.” “The mendicant Channa did indeed have such families. But this is not enough for me to call someone ‘blameworthy’. When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’. But the mendicant Channa did no such thing. You should remember this: ‘The mendicant Channa slit his wrists blamelessly.’” "

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Volovsky
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:58 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:49 pm

"Then Sāriputta went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, Venerable Channa has slit his wrists. Where has he been reborn in his next life?” “Sāriputta, didn’t the mendicant Channa declare his blamelessness to you personally?” “Sir, there is a Vajjian village named Pubbavijjhana where Channa had families with whom he was friendly, intimate, and familiar.” “The mendicant Channa did indeed have such families. But this is not enough for me to call someone ‘blameworthy’. When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’. But the mendicant Channa did no such thing. You should remember this: ‘The mendicant Channa slit his wrists blamelessly.’” "
Yes, this was discussed through this topic. But if we accept the point of view that he attained arahantship at the moment of death, then what are the evidences he was ariya before that?

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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by budo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:58 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:49 pm

"Then Sāriputta went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, Venerable Channa has slit his wrists. Where has he been reborn in his next life?” “Sāriputta, didn’t the mendicant Channa declare his blamelessness to you personally?” “Sir, there is a Vajjian village named Pubbavijjhana where Channa had families with whom he was friendly, intimate, and familiar.” “The mendicant Channa did indeed have such families. But this is not enough for me to call someone ‘blameworthy’. When someone lays down this body and takes up another body, I call them ‘blameworthy’. But the mendicant Channa did no such thing. You should remember this: ‘The mendicant Channa slit his wrists blamelessly.’” "
Yes, this was discussed through this topic. But if we accept the point of view that he attained arahantship at the moment of death, then what are the evidences he was ariya before that?
He already made the claim of Arahantship before he committed suicide, then Sariputta questioned him to figure out if he was an Arahant or something prior to an Arahant. He also claimed to have experienced cessation.

“Reverend Sāriputta, it’s not that I don’t have suitable food; I do have suitable food. It’s not that I don’t have suitable medicine; I do have suitable medicine. It’s not that I don’t have a capable carer; I do have a capable carer. Moreover, for a long time now I have served the Teacher with love, not without love. For it is proper for a disciple to serve the Teacher with love, not without love. You should remember this: ‘The mendicant Channa slit his wrists blamelessly.’”

“I’d like to ask Venerable Channa about a certain point, if you’d take the time to answer.” “Ask, Reverend Sāriputta. When I’ve heard it I’ll know.”

“Reverend Channa, do you regard the eye, eye consciousness, and things knowable by eye consciousness in this way: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’? Do you regard the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind, mind consciousness, and things knowable by mind consciousness in this way: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

“Reverend Sāriputta, I regard the eye, eye consciousness, and things knowable by eye consciousness in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ I regard the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind, mind consciousness, and things knowable by mind consciousness in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’.”

“Reverend Channa, what have you seen, what have you directly known in these things that you regard them in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’?”

“Reverend Sāriputta, after seeing cessation, after directly knowing cessation in these things I regard them in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’.”

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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by Zom » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:06 pm

then what are the evidences he was ariya before that?
Most clear evidences are in Channa sutta SN 35.87. Channa does say there a statement, elsewhere identified as samma-ditthi. Putthujana doesn't have such view.

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Volovsky
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by Volovsky » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:31 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm
“Reverend Sāriputta, after seeing cessation, after directly knowing cessation in these things I regard them in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’.”
Ok, I see your point. Although, I think that a puthujjana with the knowledge of the doctrine can fall into such overestimation. I would say the possibility of suicide by an ariya is neither definitely supported nor rejected by suttas.

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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by budo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:36 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:31 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm
“Reverend Sāriputta, after seeing cessation, after directly knowing cessation in these things I regard them in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’.”
Ok, I see your point. Although, I think that a puthujjana with the knowledge of the doctrine can fall into such overestimation. I would say the possibility of suicide by an ariya is neither definitely supported nor rejected by suttas.
If that's the case then you can deny all the characters who declare themselves in the Sutta Pitaka as being noble ones. You have to take the suttas at face value. Usually a higher monk or the Buddha would call them out on their claim, but in these suttas the Buddha is confirming their attainment.

There has to be a reasonable limit to doubt, and I would say that your denial is beyond the reasonable limit of doubt.

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Can a sotāpanna committ suicide?

Post by Manopubbangama » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:19 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:40 pm
I hope people can help interpret Channovada Sutta of the Majjhima, because its opaque in ultimate meaning to me.
The Channovada Sutta says Channo was blameless because he let go of life without desiring another life or desiring another world, i.e., not desiring another "kaya" (group of aggregates).

[/quote]

Aha, this is indeed helpful, thank you. :namaste:


Do you have any more links on "kaya" or aggregates and upadana in relationship to rebirth?

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