Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:13 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:01 pm
I would say a sotapanna come back 7 times because they still have certain degree of greed and hatred but not ignorance . Ignorance is a view , is a veil of darkness .
You seem to say that a Sotapanna has completedly 100% eradicated ignorance. This is not true. Avijja/Ignorance is among the 5 higher fetters which can only be completely uprooted once one has attained arahantship. From Ven. Nyanatiloka's Pali Dictionary:
Avijja wrote:As ignorance still exists - though in a very refined way until the attainment of Arahatship or Holiness, it is counted as the last of the 10 fetters (samyojana) which bind beings to the cycle of rebirths. As the first two roots of evil, greed and hate (s. mūla), are on their part rooted in ignorance, consequently all unwholesome states of mind are inseparably bound up with it. Ignorance (or delusion) is the most obstinate of the three roots of evil.

dharmacorps
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:42 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:13 pm
You seem to say that a Sotapanna has completedly 100% eradicated ignorance. This is not true.
:goodpost:

Exactly. The Sotapanna has understood some things but ignorance is still there and it is still fairly pervasive. Its the last thing to go on the path.

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:21 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:13 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:01 pm
I would say a sotapanna come back 7 times because they still have certain degree of greed and hatred but not ignorance . Ignorance is a view , is a veil of darkness .
You seem to say that a Sotapanna has completedly 100% eradicated ignorance. This is not true. Avijja/Ignorance is among the 5 higher fetters which can only be completely uprooted once one has attained arahantship. From Ven. Nyanatiloka's Pali Dictionary:
Avijja wrote:As ignorance still exists - though in a very refined way until the attainment of Arahatship or Holiness, it is counted as the last of the 10 fetters (samyojana) which bind beings to the cycle of rebirths. As the first two roots of evil, greed and hate (s. mūla), are on their part rooted in ignorance, consequently all unwholesome states of mind are inseparably bound up with it. Ignorance (or delusion) is the most obstinate of the three roots of evil.

I doubt that the five higher fetters is correct .

1.Desire for form realm
2.Desire for formless realm
3.conceit
4.restlessness
5.ignorance

As I said , ignorance is about View , once abandoned , only left greed hatred to work on .
For an arahant , s/he does not necessarily attain the arupa realm , therefore , why include the formless realm , that is illogical .
Another thing is restlessness is in the five hindrances . Restlessness-and-worry or the inability to calm the mind is overcome after attaining rupa jhana .
Why then the fetters does not include sloth and torpor ?

The Abhidhamma Pitaka's Dhamma Sangani (Dhs. 1113-34) provides an alternate list of ten fetters.

1.sensual lust
2.anger
3.conceit
4.views
5.doubt
6.attachment to rites and rituals
7.lust for existence
8.jealousy
9.greed
10.ignorance
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:34 pm

James Tan wrote:I doubt that the five higher fetters is correct.

As I said , ignorance is about View , once abandoned , only left greed hatred to work on .
Please provide backup sutta references/literature to back up your claims above, especially your belief that Sotapannas have completely 100% eradicated Ignorance.

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:43 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:34 pm
James Tan wrote:I doubt that the five higher fetters is correct.

As I said , ignorance is about View , once abandoned , only left greed hatred to work on .
Please provide backup sutta references/literature to back up your claims above, especially your belief that Sotapannas have completely 100% eradicated Ignorance.
Can you provide logical reason with why desire for formless realm and restlessness is included in the fetters ?
If an arahant only attained to form jhana how can s/he abandon the desire for formless realm fetter ?
:reading:

santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:55 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:43 pm
Can you provide logical reason with why desire for formless realm and restlessness is included in the fetters ?
If an arahant only attained to form jhana how can s/he abandon the desire for formless realm fetter ?
Since I've already provided references, but you have not provided any to back up your claim that Sotapannas have completedly 100% eradicated Ignorance. Please do your part first.

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:13 am

santa100 wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:55 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:43 pm
Can you provide logical reason with why desire for formless realm and restlessness is included in the fetters ?
If an arahant only attained to form jhana how can s/he abandon the desire for formless realm fetter ?
Since I've already provided references, but you have not provided any to back up your claim that Sotapannas have completedly 100% eradicated Ignorance. Please do your part first.
No, sorry to say that I did not see any proof of the sutta that says ignorance is something constitute of 100% ignorance , and a person needs to chip off bit by bit of the ignorance .
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:09 pm

James Tan wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:13 am
No, sorry to say that I did not see any proof of the sutta that says ignorance is something constitute of 100% ignorance , and a person needs to chip off bit by bit of the ignorance .
Then how do you explaine both Sutta and Abhidhamma's specification of Ignorance as belonging to the higher fetters, which can only be eradicated at arahantship? And even assuming the Sutta and Abhidhamma didn't say that, if you believe that Sotapannas already eradicated 100% ignorance, you still need to provide backup reference, instead of saying just because you don't see anything in the suttas would automatically mean the opposite is true.

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:51 am

santa100 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:09 pm
James Tan wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:13 am
No, sorry to say that I did not see any proof of the sutta that says ignorance is something constitute of 100% ignorance , and a person needs to chip off bit by bit of the ignorance .
Then how do you explaine both Sutta and Abhidhamma's specification of Ignorance as belonging to the higher fetters, which can only be eradicated at arahantship? And even assuming the Sutta and Abhidhamma didn't say that, if you believe that Sotapannas already eradicated 100% ignorance, you still need to provide backup reference, instead of saying just because you don't see anything in the suttas would automatically mean the opposite is true.
If you don't mind let's take another look at the ten fetters .

And which are the five lower fetters?

1.Self-identity views
2.doubts
3.grasping at precepts & practices
4.sensual desire
5.ill will


And which are the five higher fetters?

Desire for form
Desire for what is formless
conceit
restlessness
ignorance


Okay now the sotapanna eradicate the first three , ie self view , doubt and rite & ritual attachment .

And the arahant eradicate the five lower fetters & five higher fetters .


So, what do you think ? For a sotapanna , According to the sequence there is no mentioning of ignorance abandoning ?

In that case , your Assumption that sotapanna abandoned certain degree of the ignorance is not really making sense , does it ?

But , I will let you (or others) ponder on it.
You may missed something so is others .


Regards .
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:12 pm

James Tan wrote:So, what do you think ? For a sotapanna , According to the sequence there is no mentioning of ignorance abandoning ?

In that case , your Assumption that sotapanna abandoned certain degree of the ignorance is not really making sense , does it ?
That's easy to explain. But you've still continuously failed to provide any backup reference to support your original claim that Sotapannas have eradicated 100% ignorance, which is 100% against both Suttas and Abhidhamma's text. I'd be happy to explain your question, but first we have to be 100% clear that your original position has zero support from neither Suttas nor Abhidhamma. If you do not acknowledge that, then it's obviously pointless for me to explain anything further for you.

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:06 am

santa100 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:12 pm
James Tan wrote:So, what do you think ? For a sotapanna , According to the sequence there is no mentioning of ignorance abandoning ?

In that case , your Assumption that sotapanna abandoned certain degree of the ignorance is not really making sense , does it ?
That's easy to explain. But you've still continuously failed to provide any backup reference to support your original claim that Sotapannas have eradicated 100% ignorance, which is 100% against both Suttas and Abhidhamma's text. I'd be happy to explain your question, but first we have to be 100% clear that your original position has zero support from neither Suttas nor Abhidhamma. If you do not acknowledge that, then it's obviously pointless for me to explain anything further for you.
Take note that I did not say ignorance is something of 100% composition , instead is veil of darkness , once abandoned no more . You just lift the veil and there the light is shining through . There is a different compare to your understanding .

Your saying is sotapanna still retains some ignorance , therefore , s/he still blinded by ignorance .
If says a person still have ignorance , certainly , the Wrong View will Follows. How will you explain a sotapanna with certain degree of ignorance and Confirm that s/he doesn't has wrong view following ?

According to text below , a person with a Right View ie in the beginning of the Eight Right Path , where prior to it s/he already has the True Knowledge , which means no more ignorance .
However , I would be happy if you can shows how this understanding is not correct .


https://suttacentral.net/an10.105/en/sujato

Ignorance is the precursor of wrong view and the other bad qualities, while right view is the opposite.


https://suttacentral.net/sn45.1/en/bodhi


“Bhikkhus, ignorance is the forerunner in the entry upon unwholesome states, with shamelessness and fearlessness of wrongdoing following along. For an unwise person immersed in ignorance, wrong view springs up. For one of wrong view, wrong intention springs up. For one of wrong intention, wrong speech springs up. For one of wrong speech, wrong action springs up. For one of wrong action, wrong livelihood springs up. For one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort springs up. For one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness springs up. For one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration springs up.

“Bhikkhus, true knowledge is the forerunner in the entry upon wholesome states, with a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing following along. For a wise person who has arrived at true knowledge, right view springs up. For one of right view, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up.”
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:31 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:06 am
Take note that I did not say ignorance is something of 100% composition , instead is veil of darkness , once abandoned no more . You just lift the veil and there the light is shining through . There is a different compare to your understanding .
Problem is your cited reference does not support your theory that ignorance is like a "veil of darkness" and a simple act of lifting it would instantly remove it. My analogy is that ignorance is like thick layers of crust and dust covering a mirror that one has to put lots of effort into scraping it away bit by bit until the mirror's brightness is finally revealed. This make more sense and is in accordance with the 10 fetters model. They're all caused by ignorance, and by consistently chipping away bit by bit (ie. 3 fetters (sotapanna), weaken the next 2 (sakadagami), remove the next 2 (anagami), and finally the last 5 (arahant)), until the mirror's brightness is completely revealed.

James Tan
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:45 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:31 am
James Tan wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:06 am
Take note that I did not say ignorance is something of 100% composition , instead is veil of darkness , once abandoned no more . You just lift the veil and there the light is shining through . There is a different compare to your understanding .
Problem is your cited reference does not support your theory that ignorance is like a "veil of darkness" and a simple act of lifting it would instantly remove it. My analogy is that ignorance is like thick layers of crust and dust covering a mirror that one has to put lots of effort into scraping it away bit by bit until the mirror's brightness is finally revealed. This make more sense and is in accordance with the 10 fetters model. They're all caused by ignorance, and by consistently chipping away bit by bit (ie. 3 fetters (sotapanna), weaken the next 2 (sakadagami), remove the next 2 (anagami), and finally the last 5 (arahant)), until the mirror's brightness is completely revealed.
Ok then , what about the logic behind per questions I asked ? Why is restlessness in the five hindrances suddenly reappeared in the higher fetters ? And it seems that Attachment to the Formless realm is illogical since many Arahants did not have the arupa jhana ?

Where then the sutta state that ignorance is something of 100% composition ? As long as ignorance is around , wrong view will follows .
:reading:

santa100
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Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:48 pm

James Tan wrote: Ok then , what about the logic behind per questions I asked ? Why is restlessness in the five hindrances suddenly reappeared in the higher fetters ? And it seems that Attachment to the Formless realm is illogical since many Arahants did not have the arupa jhana ?
What do you mean restlessness "reappears in the higher fetters"? Where do you see it's said in the suttas that the five hindrances were completely eradicated before arahantship? Where do you see it's said that one does not have attachment to formless realm just because s/he doesn't attain arupa jhana? Just because you don't have that beautiful girl in your school automatically mean you never have attachment to her?
Where then the sutta state that ignorance is something of 100% composition ? As long as ignorance is around , wrong view will follows
In other words, you've just reiterated your position that Sotapannas have completely eradicated ignorance? You tried to deny it before but now you're confirming it?

James Tan
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Does the ignorance remove later or in the beginning ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:44 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:48 pm
James Tan wrote: Ok then , what about the logic behind per questions I asked ? Why is restlessness in the five hindrances suddenly reappeared in the higher fetters ? And it seems that Attachment to the Formless realm is illogical since many Arahants did not have the arupa jhana ?
What do you mean restlessness "reappears in the higher fetters"? Where do you see it's said in the suttas that the five hindrances were completely eradicated before arahantship? Where do you see it's said that one does not have attachment to formless realm just because s/he doesn't attain arupa jhana? Just because you don't have that beautiful girl in your school automatically mean you never have attachment to her?
Where then the sutta state that ignorance is something of 100% composition ? As long as ignorance is around , wrong view will follows
In other words, you've just reiterated your position that Sotapannas have completely eradicated ignorance? You tried to deny it before but now you're confirming it?
Hello friend,

You didn't answer my questions as I provided you with the Sutta and my explanations already . However , you have your own views and not that other must agree with me.

I don't know what you understand of hindrances , unless you take both hindrances and fetters as synonym but my understanding is , hindrances as an initial obstacles need to subdue so that to enable to reach the jhana and NOT to eradicate them .

<<
According to Ajahn Brahmavamso :

The deliberate idea of overcoming these five hindrances is important because it is the five hindrances that block the door to the jhāna.

Ajahn Brahmavamso states:
Restlessness [uddhacca] is overcome by developing contentment, which is the opposite of fault-finding.
>>

The Question I asked is Desire for formless realm but how do you explain if that person Never Know formless realm therefore where is the Desire for it come into the picture ?


As for ignorance , per sn45.1 the sutta already said , when there is ignorance there is wrong view . When there is Knowledge there is right view .


If there's no further information you could offer then wish you have a good day .
:reading:

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