Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by AgarikaJ » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:01 pm

2600htz wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:22 pm
I think that when the Buddha accepted that females could ordain, it was like breaking a seal, and he was pretty clear about this.
But he was ok with that, he traded longevity of the true dhamma for diversity. And again, he was ok with that.
Might I bring forward, as addition to all that has been said here, a viewpoint of Bikkhu Analayo, who wrote (p. 170) that the degradation in the Dhamma we perceive might not just be because bikkhunis were ordained once but because they are not so now?
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... kkhuni.pdf
"When considered from the canonical viewpoint, however, the decline of the sāsana is rather to be found in the absence of an order of bhikkhunīs. A discourse in the Aṅguttara-nikāya and its Chinese and Tibetan parallels describe several unfortunate conditions where one might be reborn and be unable to practice the Dharma, such as being born in hell, in the animal realm, among hungry ghosts, or in a border country. The problem of being born in a border country is that there the four assemblies are not found — the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunīs, the male lay followers and the female lay followers.

While this passage speaks of the absence of all four assemblies, in view of the interrelation between the four assemblies, even the absence of one of them would result in a deplorable situation.
From this viewpoint, Burma at present would be in such a deplorable situation, lacking an assembly of bhikkhunīs in the country. In Thailand the prohibition of bhikkhunī ordination by Thai bhikkhus makes it difficult for Thailand to emerge from a similar condition. Only in Sri Lanka has the border country condition been fully overcome, as all four assemblies can now be found in the country, although official recognition of the bhikkhunī order by the Buddha Sāsana ministry has so far been withheld. The border country condition has also to some degree been overcome in those countries in the West where, even though Buddhists are a minority, bhikkhunī communities have come into being."
... and also by Bikkhu Analayo, a discussion of the Four Assemblies as per the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta, here: https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... -buddhism/ (the Sutta itself, here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html).
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Volovsky
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Volovsky » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:12 pm

A clever person asks "how?", a wise person asks "why?"

Why do we want to restore bikkhuni sangha? - 1) We want to give women the same opportunities as man have. But this can be done without restoration of bikkhuni ordination. Let's build more nunneries (for 8/10 precept nuns), more meditation centers and colleges, where women are welcomed, let's encourage them to teach us - male practitioners, etc. 2) They desperately want to become bikkhunis. Ok. Mahayanists still have bikkhuni sangha. I've heard some nunneries in Taiwan are very strict (stricter then some of the theravada monks). They can ordain there. Mahayana bikkhunis are accepted in most international theravada meditation centers (in contrast to new "theravada" bikkhunis) and are treated with respect.

But now they restore bikkhuni ordination and say they are not going to follow a considerable part of bikkhuni Vinaya: garu dhammas, rules about staying alone in the forest, prohibition to travel alone, etc, etc. These are serious offenses (sanghadisesa).

Further, according to Vinaya before becoming a bikkhuni a candidate should stay for a 2 years as sikkhamāna. Also for bikkhunis upajjhāya can have only 1 student per 5 years (for bikkhus no restrictions), which means bikkhuni sangha can grow only extremely slowly. Moreover, bikkhuni cannot reordain - if she has left the order, she cannot become bikkhuni again.

All this they don't want to follow. Is it serious? Why to go through all this troubles and conflicts with the Asian Sangha and then simply abolish all rules you don't like? The purposes they want to achieve can be achieved much easier.

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StormBorn
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by StormBorn » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:12 pm
But now they restore bikkhuni ordination and say they are not going to follow a considerable part of bikkhuni Vinaya: garu dhammas, rules about staying alone in the forest, prohibition to travel alone, etc, etc. These are serious offenses (sanghadisesa).

Further, according to Vinaya before becoming a bikkhuni a candidate should stay for a 2 years as sikkhamāna. Also for bikkhunis upajjhāya can have only 1 student per 5 years (for bikkhus no restrictions), which means bikkhuni sangha can grow only extremely slowly. Moreover, bikkhuni cannot reordain - if she has left the order, she cannot become bikkhuni again.

All this they don't want to follow. Is it serious? Why to go through all this troubles and conflicts with the Asian Sangha and then simply abolish all rules you don't like? The purposes they want to achieve can be achieved much easier.
If true, this changes my attitude towards bhikkhunis and their motivations. It seems they just want to be a "man" in a "female" body which is evident from the not wanting to follow "rules about staying alone in the forest" and "prohibition to travel alone."

Perhaps they should consider a sex-change surgery first and then only become a bhikkhu. That will solve the bhikkhuni issue forever!
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DNS » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:19 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:12 pm
But now they restore bikkhuni ordination and say they are not going to follow a considerable part of bikkhuni Vinaya: garu dhammas, rules about staying alone in the forest, prohibition to travel alone, etc, etc. These are serious offenses (sanghadisesa).

Further, according to Vinaya before becoming a bikkhuni a candidate should stay for a 2 years as sikkhamāna. Also for bikkhunis upajjhāya can have only 1 student per 5 years (for bikkhus no restrictions), which means bikkhuni sangha can grow only extremely slowly. Moreover, bikkhuni cannot reordain - if she has left the order, she cannot become bikkhuni again.

All this they don't want to follow. Is it serious? Why to go through all this troubles and conflicts with the Asian Sangha and then simply abolish all rules you don't like? The purposes they want to achieve can be achieved much easier.
It appears you might be cherry-picking. I have been around bhikkhu and bhikkhuni monasteries over the years and have seen some obvious Vinaya violations, handling money, monks driving a car alone with a lay woman, monks eating in the evenings. I'm sure there are plenty of violations at both bhikkhu and bhikkhuni monasteries, but I've noticed very austere practices by the nuns I have visited; very strict on not eating after 12 noon, meditation practice, not driving, not being alone with lay men, etc.

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Volovsky » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:25 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 pm
If true, this changes my attitude towards bhikkhunis and their motivations. It seems they just want to be a "man" in a "female" body which is evident from the not wanting to follow "rules about staying alone in the forest" and "prohibition to travel alone."
I think if they would follow these rules it would make even less sense. Since as a lay practitioner or an 8 precept nun they could meditate alone in the forest/travel alone let's say to Asia for a retreat, and after becoming a bhikkhuni this is not possible anymore. Why to become bhikkhuni then?

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Volovsky » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:38 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:19 pm
It appears you might be cherry-picking. I have been around bhikkhu and bhikkhuni monasteries over the years and have seen some obvious Vinaya violations, handling money, monks driving a car alone with a lay woman, monks eating in the evenings. I'm sure there are plenty of violations at both bhikkhu and bhikkhuni monasteries, but I've noticed very austere practices by the nuns I have visited; very strict on not eating after 12 noon, meditation practice, not driving, not being alone with lay men, etc.
I am not saying they are lax. I readily believe, that most of bhikkhunis would observe the rules you've mentioned (but they could do it also as 8/10 precepts nuns). But there are some things (about which I said) which they don't want to follow from the very beginning. Can you imagine somebody would say to his upajjhaya before ordination "I'm not going to follow sanghadisesa #1, since it is a later addition"?

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DNS » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:49 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:38 pm
I am not saying they are lax. I readily believe, that most of bhikkhunis would observe the rules you've mentioned (but they could do it also as 8/10 precepts nuns). But there are some things (about which I said) which they don't want to follow from the very beginning. Can you imagine somebody would say to his upajjhaya before ordination "I'm not going to follow sanghadisesa #1, since it is a later addition"?
Couldn't you say the same thing about men? There are men who don't want to follow the rules, some right from the beginning. And couldn't a man also just be an 8-precept or 10 precept practitioner?

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:26 pm



In this video the Bhikkhuni says interesting things, such as:

1. They are called 'The Forest Tradition of the West".

2. She has Tibetan Nyingma teacher .

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by pilgrim » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:19 am

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:51 pm
Bhikkhuni Ordination:

Discouraged by : The Blessed One Buddha, The Greatest Ascetic Maha Kassapa Thero, All the Arahants of The First Council except Ananda Thero
Encouraged by : Maha Pajapati Gotami Theri (before arahantship), The Greatest Scholar Ananda Thero (before arahantship)

Modern Days:

Discouraged by : All the Supreme Leaders of Sangha, Vast Majority of Sangha, Ajahn Chah Group Sangha
Encouraged by : Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato, Several Western Bhikkhus, Self Proclaimed Bhikkhunis, Modern Feminists

You yourself decide who knows Dhamma well.
The logic is faulty. One can also say that the Mingun Jetawun Sayadaw U Narada (the teacher of Mahasi Sayadaw) encouraged. The Burmese govt discouraged. You can also yourself decide who knows Dhamma well.

One should decide based on the Dhamma Vinaya and what the Buddha decided.

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:31 am

pilgrim wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:19 am
One should decide based on the Dhamma Vinaya and what the Buddha decided.
Everyone pro-bhikkhuni argues the above. Everyone argues that the Buddha said this & that. Yet when they become bhikkhunis, they immediately divorce themselves from the "lineage" they argue ordained them and start their own sects and even follow Mahayana teachings.

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Seven77 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:54 pm

Hi,

Buddhism is the first religion in history to allow nuns by a big margin.
Buddhism is a religion of equality, respect and loving-kindness (for all sentient beings).
Buddhism is a practical system for self development to help people give up craving and find peace.
Doesn't this mean that denying equal rights for ordination, insofar as it can help someone get enlightened (probably faster than observing 8-10 precepts), goes against some of the most important core principles of Buddhism?

Some of the Bhikkhuni rules in the Vinaya are likely to have been added later and are possibly not the Buddha's words. To the extent that there is a contradiction between core Buddhist values and the Vinaya. What takes precedence?
Last edited by Seven77 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by StormBorn » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:13 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:31 am
pilgrim wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:19 am
One should decide based on the Dhamma Vinaya and what the Buddha decided.
Everyone pro-bhikkhuni argues the above. Everyone argues that the Buddha said this & that. Yet when they become bhikkhunis, they immediately divorce themselves from the "lineage" they argue ordained them and start their own sects and even follow Mahayana teachings.
One day in India I witnessed a bhikkhu partaking his meal before noon, and then a group of bhikkhunis came and offered some food to this bhikkhu. He asked the bhikkhunis, "Shouldn't you be eating by now, soon will be noon?" One of the bhikkhunis giggled saying, "Ah! unlike you, we don't have a specific time to eat. We can eat later!" Later, the bhikkhu said to me, who happens to be a Sri Lankan, that those bhikkhunis are from Sri Lanka.

I have seen on many occasions many monks also eating after the noon :shrug:
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by Seven77 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:15 am

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:51 pm
Bhikkhuni Ordination:

Discouraged by : The Blessed One Buddha, The Greatest Ascetic Maha Kassapa Thero, All the Arahants of The First Council except Ananda Thero
Encouraged by : Maha Pajapati Gotami Theri (before arahantship), The Greatest Scholar Ananda Thero (before arahantship)

Modern Days:

Discouraged by : All the Supreme Leaders of Sangha, Vast Majority of Sangha, Ajahn Chah Group Sangha
Encouraged by : Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Sujato, Several Western Bhikkhus, Self Proclaimed Bhikkhunis, Modern Feminists

You yourself decide who knows Dhamma well.
Encouraged by His Holiness The Dalai Lama, who said: "If The Buddha was alive today I am absolutely certain he would approve of Bhikkhunis".

Encouraged by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi who is hands down one of the biggest authorities on Dhamma today. He thinks it is vital for Buddhism and society at large that there be bhikkhunis and a feminine perspective.

:anjali:

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by AgarikaJ » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:31 am
Yet when they become bhikkhunis, they immediately divorce themselves from the "lineage" they argue ordained them and start their own sects and even follow Mahayana teachings.
Who is 'they'? All bikkhunis, all bikkhunis you know, maybe just some bikkhunis?

With regard to Theravadan bikkhunis (what we seemingly talk about); it is understood that their precepture came from Dharmaguptaka. It seems not unreasonable to assume that they would follow what their teachers taught them... if you want to call this 'Mahayana' because it has a slightly different canon and tradition to 'true Theravada', this is a label which would of course fit.

But, it is a label, nothing more.

In the same way, that many monks I have seen in Thailand can only loosely be described to follow 'Theravada'.

Should practice really be an issue of pointing fingers to whom has the most disgressions? How is this helpful?
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Re: Discouraging and Encouraging Bhikkhuni Ordination

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:26 am

AgarikaJ wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:47 am
Who is 'they'? All bikkhunis, all bikkhunis you know, maybe just some bikkhunis?
Well, I posted a video above, where the bhikkhuni has made a big fuss many times (elsewhere) about why the Buddha would ordain them but then she said she was part of a sect called 'The Forest Tradition of the West" and then said she has a Nyingma teacher. Thus it appears she has moved on or split-off from the so-called "lineage" that ordained her. While I am not personally inherently against bhikkhuni ordination, I think Thanissaro's argument has some validity, that in the Buddha's time, the Buddha taught those bhikkhunis. But today, the bhikkhunis can choose to follow an alien dharma. In other words, what exactly is the lineage? Does this lineage include the entire diversity of sects & doctrines that now fall under the umbrella called "Buddhism"? :shrug:
(4) “Just as, when the great rivers … reach the great ocean, they give up their former names and designations and are simply called the great ocean, so too, when members of the four social classes—khattiyas, brahmins, vessas, and suddas—go forth from the household life into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata, they give up their former names and clans and are simply called ascetics following the Sakyan son. This is the fourth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline….

https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/bodhi

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