Does kamma determined our birth ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by TRobinson465 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:58 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:07 am
Im a bit curious where you got the idea that generally asians do this.
Because they do.
What evidence do u have that asians generally do this?
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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LG2V
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by LG2V » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:36 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:58 am
DooDoot, you make this site more interesting. I enjoy reading your posts.
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

auto
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by auto » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:18 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The thought would occur to him: 'Isn't it amazing? Isn't it astounding? — the destination, the results, of meritorious deeds. For this King Ajatasattu is a human being, and I, too, am a human being, yet King Ajatasattu enjoys himself supplied and replete with the five strings of sensuality — like a deva, as it were — while I am his slave, his workman... always watching for the look on his face. I, too, should do meritorious deeds.
What if I were to shave off my hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?'
It seem serving a King isn't a meritorious deed. But King is a result of meritorious deeds. Looks like King's servants are the results of past deeds.
"So, lord, I ask the Blessed One as well: There are these common craftsmen: elephant-trainers, horse-trainers, charioteers, archers, standard bearers, camp marshals, supply corps officers, high royal officers, commandos, military heroes, armor-clad warriors, leather-clad warriors, domestic slaves, confectioners, barbers, bath attendants, cooks, garland-makers, laundrymen, weavers, basket-makers, potters, calculators, accountants, and any other common craftsmen of a similar sort. They live off the fruits of their crafts, visible in the here and now. They give pleasure and refreshment to themselves, to their parents, wives, and children, to their friends and colleagues. They put in place an excellent presentation of offerings to brahmans and contemplatives, leading to heaven, resulting in happiness, conducive to a heavenly rebirth. Is it possible, lord, to point out a similar fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?"
A regular worker has its crafts, work results as pleasure givers, likewise a King has servants/living beings as pleasure givers.
Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.
A jhana is contemplative persons craft and fruits 'here and now', but what are the meritorious deeds?

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DooDoot
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:51 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:33 pm
What evidence do u have that asians generally do this?
Its their historical religious culture. Much of the Indian caste system is based on these beliefs. Below, an academic study from Thailand:
While kathoey in Thailand have unique cultural considerations with regard to identity, social positioning, roles, and acceptance compared to transgender women in the West, the majority of the Thai population practices Buddhism, which includes beliefs in karma and fatalism (Punpanich et al., 2004). These beliefs may relate to societal views toward sex work, in which sex workers may be relatively accepted compared to other parts of the world. Many believe that current suffering experienced by sex workers is a consequence of performing “bad deeds” in previous lives; similarly, their performance of good deeds, such as sending money to their families and donating money to temples or monks could be rewarded in the next life (Klunklin & Greenwood, 2005; Peracca, Knodel, & Saengtienchai, 1998). Buddhist beliefs hold that individual behaviors and lifestyles may contribute to health and well-being and that experienced pain and suffering need to be examined within the individual (Ratanakul, 2004) and pain and suffering need to be accepted as they are, as opposed to fighting against or conquering them. Because of this, performing good deeds may reduce negative life experiences and personal suffering in future lives, not the current one. Totman’s (2003) ethnographic study noted that being or becoming kathoey was predetermined from birth, but engaging in sex work or being a sex worker was a consequence of misdeeds in the previous life. Job opportunities are limited for kathoey and, consequently, many kathoey engage in sex work to meet their economic needs. Engaging in sex work, therefore, is not judged by a moral standard, but is part of life as suffering or accepting suffering. Most of all, sending money to family is considered a good deed and a merit for future life. Our study links the importance of religion, culture, and societal views to the experiences of kathoey sex workers (KSW).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4748389/

James Tan
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:56 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:51 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:33 pm
What evidence do u have that asians generally do this?
Its their historical religious culture. Much of the Indian caste system is based on these beliefs. Below, an academic study from Thailand:
While kathoey in Thailand have unique cultural considerations with regard to identity, social positioning, roles, and acceptance compared to transgender women in the West, the majority of the Thai population practices Buddhism, which includes beliefs in karma and fatalism (Punpanich et al., 2004). These beliefs may relate to societal views toward sex work, in which sex workers may be relatively accepted compared to other parts of the world. Many believe that current suffering experienced by sex workers is a consequence of performing “bad deeds” in previous lives; similarly, their performance of good deeds, such as sending money to their families and donating money to temples or monks could be rewarded in the next life (Klunklin & Greenwood, 2005; Peracca, Knodel, & Saengtienchai, 1998). Buddhist beliefs hold that individual behaviors and lifestyles may contribute to health and well-being and that experienced pain and suffering need to be examined within the individual (Ratanakul, 2004) and pain and suffering need to be accepted as they are, as opposed to fighting against or conquering them. Because of this, performing good deeds may reduce negative life experiences and personal suffering in future lives, not the current one. Totman’s (2003) ethnographic study noted that being or becoming kathoey was predetermined from birth, but engaging in sex work or being a sex worker was a consequence of misdeeds in the previous life. Job opportunities are limited for kathoey and, consequently, many kathoey engage in sex work to meet their economic needs. Engaging in sex work, therefore, is not judged by a moral standard, but is part of life as suffering or accepting suffering. Most of all, sending money to family is considered a good deed and a merit for future life. Our study links the importance of religion, culture, and societal views to the experiences of kathoey sex workers (KSW).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4748389/
It seems that the monks has to deliver more information about relevant topic to the public instead of finger pointing . Fated Kamma is something attached to Buddhism existing in all traditions.
Doing good deeds and Dana to the sangha can accumulate abundant of merits is part of Buddha teaching . People would normally choose the easiest way to follow .
:reading:

TRobinson465
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:14 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:51 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:33 pm
What evidence do u have that asians generally do this?
Its their historical religious culture. Much of the Indian caste system is based on these beliefs. Below, an academic study from Thailand:
While kathoey in Thailand have unique cultural considerations with regard to identity, social positioning, roles, and acceptance compared to transgender women in the West, the majority of the Thai population practices Buddhism, which includes beliefs in karma and fatalism (Punpanich et al., 2004). These beliefs may relate to societal views toward sex work, in which sex workers may be relatively accepted compared to other parts of the world. Many believe that current suffering experienced by sex workers is a consequence of performing “bad deeds” in previous lives; similarly, their performance of good deeds, such as sending money to their families and donating money to temples or monks could be rewarded in the next life (Klunklin & Greenwood, 2005; Peracca, Knodel, & Saengtienchai, 1998). Buddhist beliefs hold that individual behaviors and lifestyles may contribute to health and well-being and that experienced pain and suffering need to be examined within the individual (Ratanakul, 2004) and pain and suffering need to be accepted as they are, as opposed to fighting against or conquering them. Because of this, performing good deeds may reduce negative life experiences and personal suffering in future lives, not the current one. Totman’s (2003) ethnographic study noted that being or becoming kathoey was predetermined from birth, but engaging in sex work or being a sex worker was a consequence of misdeeds in the previous life. Job opportunities are limited for kathoey and, consequently, many kathoey engage in sex work to meet their economic needs. Engaging in sex work, therefore, is not judged by a moral standard, but is part of life as suffering or accepting suffering. Most of all, sending money to family is considered a good deed and a merit for future life. Our study links the importance of religion, culture, and societal views to the experiences of kathoey sex workers (KSW).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4748389/
This doesnt indicate that Asians would just be passive and not report a crime because they think its kamma on part of the victim as you said earlier. on the contrary the quote shows an acceptance of certain ppl rather than looking down on them since it is the "result of sin" rather than a "sinful lifestyle". and even then i wouldnt consider this to be much different then the christian phenomenon of pregnancy from rape is Gods will.



or other things like Rockefellers famous "God gave me my money" line or Dave Ramseys God endows the rich line.

Interesting quote and topic tho. thanks for sharing.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:06 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:14 am
This doesnt indicate that Asians would just be passive...
Since prostitution is illegal in Thailand, lots of passivity appears to be occurring.
Since 1960, prostitution in Thailand has been de jure illegal. Nevertheless, it was estimated to be worth US$6.4 billion a year in revenue (2015), accounting for a significant portion of the national GDP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand

TRobinson465
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:06 am
TRobinson465 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:14 am
This doesnt indicate that Asians would just be passive...
Since prostitution is illegal in Thailand, lots of passivity appears to be occurring.
Since 1960, prostitution in Thailand has been de jure illegal. Nevertheless, it was estimated to be worth US$6.4 billion a year in revenue (2015), accounting for a significant portion of the national GDP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Thailand
The next biggest prostitution country is Philippines which is catholic. Also illegal. And that's true with western countries too. You can literally do illicit drugs in the western world out in the open in college campuses. Both of these examples. Prostitution and illicit drugs are poor parallels to your, child abuse but won't call the cops example earlier tho. Since these are both victimless crimes. I dont know any person, white, Asian or of any background. Who would avoid calling the cops on a crime like child abuse, where there is a victim, because of it was their fault via kamma, or Gods will in the case of non kamma believing cultures.

But to be Frank I'm pretty sick of arguing about this because i sorta get what ur trying to say and I agree with you about the problem that mindset has. I just disagree that its unique to kamma since the Gods will mindset is essentially the same. And I disagree with ur examples. Like the Hitler reincarnation nonsense you somehow pulled out of nowhere, the Asian ppl wont call the cops because it was the victims kamma was not only unsubstantiated and almost offensive. Its just flat out ridiculous.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:16 am

And with that closing. I would like to pull out from this debate as i feel further discussion would just result in us arguing on two different pages. feel free to declare victory if you need to so much. And thank you for that interesting study on Thailand.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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DooDoot
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:31 am

:focus:
James Tan wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:23 pm
Does our birth such as born deformed or with single leg/arm , as male/female , with higher /lower IQ , take birth as a King , being born as African , born rich /poor etc etc all has to do with previous life kamma ? What about being born as animals and insects ?
Apart from MN 135 (addressed to a young Brahman student rather than to a Buddhist), I personally have not read much in the Pali suttas that pertains to past-life determinism. Most of what I have read or noticed is about how knowable present kamma affects the future (rather than how unknowable past kamma affects the present). :shrug:

James Tan
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Re: Does kamma determined our birth ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:17 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:31 am
:focus:
James Tan wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:23 pm
Does our birth such as born deformed or with single leg/arm , as male/female , with higher /lower IQ , take birth as a King , being born as African , born rich /poor etc etc all has to do with previous life kamma ? What about being born as animals and insects ?
Apart from MN 135 (addressed to a young Brahman student rather than to a Buddhist), I personally have not read much in the Pali suttas that pertains to past-life determinism. Most of what I have read or noticed is about how knowable present kamma affects the future (rather than how unknowable past kamma affects the present). :shrug:
So, basically are you saying that example of taking birth in above situation is merely by chance ?
:reading:

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