The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

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cappuccino
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:07 am

death is not a magic annihilation event
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DooDoot
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:08 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:19 pm
Friend, as i read it, it says that the five spiritual faulties gain footing in the Deathless, i don't see anything about the "supramundane path factors"...
Thank you, friend. By "supramundane path factors", I am referring to the dhammas included within the below; which is any dhamma that can lead to stream-entry and the experience of anatta:
four foundations of mindfulness...four right kinds of striving…of the four bases for spiritual power…of the five faculties…of the five powers…of the seven enlightenment factors… the Noble Eightfold Path...samatha-vipassana... etc
I am not referring to mundane wholesome dhammas, such as good & bad kamma, karma & rebirth, generosity, respecting mother & father, gratitude, etc. MN 117 distigushes between supramundane and mundane wholesome dhamma in its two sorts of right view.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:55 am

...
fire and air find no footing.
tejo vāyo na gādhati;
...

What might be confusing is why Form gains no footing in VInnana Anidassanam when it is said to be gaining footing in the Deathless when both can be explained to have Non-Made State as it's referent but equating the terms is actually a mistake.

I will explain it as i understand it:

The term Deathless is referred to from the perspective of Samsara explaining the relation to the Khandas and their supporting conditioned [ignorance] in particular, designating the progressive destruction of cankers by means of attaining cessation of the conditioned [stream entry], which eventually leads to a canker free state [attainment of Arahantship] khiinaasava .

The two Nibbana Elements with and without residue are also explaining from the perspective of Samsara designating the Attainment of non-delusion, the canker free state (Arahantship) and the Final cessation of the Conditioned.

Vinnana Anidassanam and Non-Made on the other hand explain the beyond itself, implying non-existence of the conditioned and therefore non-relation to the Khandas. These two are also not the same and have their unique semantic properties.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn45.7
“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:00 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:55 am
I will explain it as i understand it
are you explaining annihilation or Nirvana before and after death?

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rightviewftw
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:01 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:04 am
RV

Could you clarify whether it is BB or the other person who you think is being outrageous? viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32419&p=481446#p481438 The other oerson sounds confused to me...

Mike
I think Bhikkhu Bodhi is confused but i am not actually outraged, i just think he is wrong.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:19 pm
Friend, on what ground do you then proclaim that only the five spiritual faculties gain footing in the Deathless and not all the dhammas, in what would the other dhammas be gaining ground and what would be their basis?
Akusula (unwholesome) dhamma (such as greed, hatred & delusion) don't merge with the Deathless.

The twelve conditions of dependent origination; that culminate in "death" ("marana"); don't merge with the Deathless.

Heedlessness does not merge with the Deathless.
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.

22. Clearly understanding this excellence of heedfulness, the wise exult therein and enjoy the resort of the Noble Ones.

23. The wise ones, ever meditative and steadfastly persevering, alone experience Nibbana, the incomparable freedom from bondage.
Conceiving "self" does not merge with the Deathless:
Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

MN 140
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:06 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:00 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:55 am
I will explain it as i understand it
are you explaining annihilation or Nirvana before and after death?
I am explaining the annihilation of delusion and the conditioned phenomena, i am also explaining what could be called the basis for beginning-less rounds of rebirth.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:15 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:06 am
I am explaining the annihilation of delusion and the conditioned phenomena
you're trying to justify annihilation

which is to be expected, until you see not self (rather than no self)

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:23 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:02 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:47 pm
would makes no sense because what is said to cease does not really merge
consciousness remains in the state (of Nirvana) from earlier
1. Nibbana is one thing and Consciousness is another
2. There is no after death of the Arahant, therefore "earlier to post-cessation of aggaregates" does not apply.
Verse:Nibbanadhatu Sutta
These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable, and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.


Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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cappuccino
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:27 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:23 am
There is no after death of the Arahant
let the Arahant declare such things

as for you, know you don't know…
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9 aka The Dhamma Conspiracy

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:29 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:27 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:23 am
There is no after death of the Arahant
let the Arahant declare such things

as for you, know you don't know, only then will you know
It has been declared as i posted in the quote above;
Verse:Nibbanadhatu Sutta
These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable, and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease
.

Having understood the unconditioned state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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cappuccino
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:30 am

this is the middle way

in this teaching absolute statements are made that are not actually absolute

but absolute statements convey a close enough truth

somehow language fails

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rightviewftw
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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:38 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:30 am
you don't realize it's not agreeing with you

hence I said not knowing is best for now

it only seems to say what you prefer to think it does
why do you keep talking to me... i tried talking to you yesterday and you ignored questions so please don't clutter the thread and dont waste my time. I know and you know that you are not at all interested in communicating and discussing if it involves answering legitimately posed questions so please friend.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1562
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:40 am

I'm talking to everyone

if it were only you I would despair

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Re: The real meaning of AN10.58 enumeration #9

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:41 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:01 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:04 am
RV

Could you clarify whether it is BB or the other person who you think is being outrageous? viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32419&p=481446#p481438 The other oerson sounds confused to me...

Mike
I think Bhikkhu Bodhi is confused but i am not actually outraged, i just think he is wrong.
Thanks. Personally I think you are over-reading Ven Thanissaro's translation. Have you read his note here?
“‘All phenomena gain footing in the deathless.2
  • 2. The image here derives from a standard analogy comparing the practice to the act of crossing a river. According to AN 7:15, the point where the meditator gains footing on the river bottom, but before getting up on the bank, corresponds to the attainment of non-return. To become an arahant is to go beyond the river and stand on firm ground.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN10_58.html
:heart:
Mike

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