If mind = brain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am

Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Disagreement on some issues is quite common .
Or is it other than Theravadin , are not allow ?

Why not buddhist display more kindness than chasing people away . Tolerances is the keyword .
:reading:

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Sam Vara
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Sam Vara » Thu May 17, 2018 8:06 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am
Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Disagreement on some issues is quite common .
Or is it other than Theravadin , are not allow ?

Why not buddhist display more kindness than chasing people away . Tolerances is the keyword .
Non-Buddhists are perfectly welcome to post on the forum. And so are different types of Buddhists, not just Theravadan.

I don't think anyone is being "chased away". There is occasionally some unkind and rough speech, which is regrettable. Everyone is responsible for their own words that are posted here, and also for their reactions to the words of others.

James Tan
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by James Tan » Thu May 17, 2018 8:13 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:06 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am
Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Disagreement on some issues is quite common .
Or is it other than Theravadin , are not allow ?

Why not buddhist display more kindness than chasing people away . Tolerances is the keyword .
Non-Buddhists are perfectly welcome to post on the forum. And so are different types of Buddhists, not just Theravadan.

I don't think anyone is being "chased away". There is occasionally some unkind and rough speech, which is regrettable. Everyone is responsible for their own words that are posted here, and also for their reactions to the words of others.
Thanks Sam, sometimes the power of words might discourage people to participate .
Many disciples of the Buddha was from different ascetic groups .
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Dinsdale » Thu May 17, 2018 8:26 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:49 am
Mod , Is there any objections for non buddhist to participate in this forum ?!
Not from me. What I do object to is threads continually being derailed with non-Buddhist rhetoric.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Dinsdale » Thu May 17, 2018 8:29 am

Bundokji wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:49 am
Consequently, the mind cannot be known directly and in that sense not different from any other sense media. It can be known retrospectively "as a thought" similar to a sound, sight, bodily sensation, taste ...etc
Interesting point. Does this also apply to the five "physical" sense organs?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Bundokji
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Thu May 17, 2018 8:46 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:29 am
Interesting point. Does this also apply to the five "physical" sense organs?
I am not sure if the five "physical" sense organs remain as a "thing" without the knowing faculty. Linguistically, they appear to have independent existence from the mind, but through first hand experience, there is no hearing, smelling, tasting ..etc without attention/intention.

For example, while i am typing this message to you, there are sounds/noises from the street nearby,. The sounds are audible, they are within the sphere of my ear consciousness, but unless i pay attention to them, i don't hear them. What is the criteria if i am hearing them or not? its my ability to recall them, so knowledge and memory seem to be one thing.

The above might bring us to some weird conclusions. Whenever i know that "i am experiencing" something, it means that its already gone.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Thu May 17, 2018 9:02 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:07 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:19 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 4:25 pm
Irrelevant question.

Here's a question for you: are you a Buddhist?
IT's not irrelevant if you are making a statement you cannot support.
I am not a Buddhist as I've stated numerous times throughout various threads.
It is irrelevant.

Have you ever seen a black hole? How do you know they exist? Aren't they something you've read about, learned from a book and now you believe in black holes?

Now this, is you may have noticed, is a Buddhist forum. As such you will hear Buddhist theories, philosophies, reasoning, etc... If you don't want to hear them or do not agree with them, then maybe you should check out another forum which fits your belief system better?

Which is your belief system, by the way?

PS We know that insects and many other creatures have no brain and yet display sentience, so maybe you could start suspending your disbelief based on this fact?
You are projecting quite a lot of images with your response. All conditioned, mind you. The only black hole I could conceivably believe in was the womb that I crawled out of.

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Grigoris
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 17, 2018 9:14 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:02 am
You are projecting quite a lot of images with your response. All conditioned, mind you. The only black hole I could conceivably believe in was the womb that I crawled out of.
I am not projecting anything. Actually, I am using the identical logic you used when you replied to my post. I figure if it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander. Seems I was wrong. ;)
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

2600htz
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by 2600htz » Thu May 17, 2018 2:02 pm

Hello:

I think mind can be tied to a body and physical matter, and in that case it would be hard to say brain does not condition mind,but there are also formless beings, possesing no form or brain.

Regards.

Circle5
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Circle5 » Thu May 17, 2018 2:48 pm

If mind=brain, then neuroplasticity and the placebo effect should not exist.

Dinsdale
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Dinsdale » Fri May 18, 2018 8:13 am

Bundokji wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:46 am
For example, while i am typing this message to you, there are sounds/noises from the street nearby,. The sounds are audible, they are within the sphere of my ear consciousness, but unless i pay attention to them, i don't hear them. What is the criteria if i am hearing them or not? its my ability to recall them, so knowledge and memory seem to be one thing.
Knowledge and memory are integral to perception ( sanna ), but Isn't this really about which aspects of experience our attention is drawn to at any one time, or which aspects of experience we choose to put our attention on?
Is paying attention to sounds really different to paying attention to thoughts? It seems like they are both objects arising at the sense bases.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Bundokji
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Fri May 18, 2018 9:48 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 8:13 am
Knowledge and memory are integral to perception ( sanna ), but Isn't this really about which aspects of experience our attention is drawn to at any one time, or which aspects of experience we choose to put our attention on?
Is paying attention to sounds really different to paying attention to thoughts? It seems like they are both objects arising at the sense bases.
When you say: "which aspects of experience our intention is drawn to" you are implying that there can be an experience without paying attention to it. While i understand why you are saying that, i am not sure if this conclusion is warranted from an "experiential" point of view.

For example, if you are riding a bike to work, you might be listening to music, or thinking about the tasks ahead, or trying to avoid a car or some pedestrians ...etc. You don't pay attention to the act of biking all the time, even though when you think about it in hindsight (after arriving to the office) you conclude that it was a part of your experience.

How do you know that there is no experience without attention? imagine you could record your experience on a tape recorder and re-watch it. You would see that there was no other aspects of experience other than what you paid attention to. The conclusion that there is "mind independent experience" or "attention independent experience" is not original, but by comparing two states:

1- I was at home
2- Now i am at work

Conclusion:
Riding the bike took place (existed) regardless if i paid attention to it or not

The same applies to the word "mind". It cannot be experienced as an original thing, but can be concluded upon comparing two states. This very conclusion arises as an experience, before it is replaced with another conclusion which is also based on comparing two states.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Grigoris
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 19, 2018 6:45 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:55 am
It seems to me that this space where all the recording of experience takes place is a projected one fabricated by thought.
All experience/sensation is a projection and fabrication of mind (a thought). Even thoughts. So you better get used to it.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Dinsdale
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Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Dinsdale » Sat May 19, 2018 8:17 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 9:48 am
For example, if you are riding a bike to work, you might be listening to music, or thinking about the tasks ahead, or trying to avoid a car or some pedestrians ...etc. You don't pay attention to the act of biking all the time, even though when you think about it in hindsight (after arriving to the office) you conclude that it was a part of your experience.
It depends how we define "experience", but I think I see the distinction you're making. For me the point is about choosing to place attention on particular aspects of experience.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Bundokji
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Sat May 19, 2018 8:47 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:17 am
It depends how we define "experience", but I think I see the distinction you're making. For me the point is about choosing to place attention on particular aspects of experience.
Experience is what is known (past tense). Even if you see a phenomena for the first time, you would declare that you don't know it (in relation to the known).

Choosing also don't seem to be original. You might notice that what attracts our attention is what stands out in a particular environment/situation (hence it is not value free). Imagine you are sitting in restaurant, and two people sitting at the nearby table start to shout at each other. This would attract your attention even if you feel that you chose to direct your attention to it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Sat May 19, 2018 9:28 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:45 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:55 am
It seems to me that this space where all the recording of experience takes place is a projected one fabricated by thought.
All experience/sensation is a projection and fabrication of mind (a thought). Even thoughts. So you better get used to it.
I thought I was implying that.

Saengnapha
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Sat May 19, 2018 10:00 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:47 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:17 am
It depends how we define "experience", but I think I see the distinction you're making. For me the point is about choosing to place attention on particular aspects of experience.
Experience is what is known (past tense). Even if you see a phenomena for the first time, you would declare that you don't know it (in relation to the known).

Choosing also don't seem to be original. You might notice that what attracts our attention is what stands out in a particular environment/situation (hence it is not value free). Imagine you are sitting in restaurant, and two people sitting at the nearby table start to shout at each other. This would attract your attention even if you feel that you chose to direct your attention to it.
The brain is constantly recording all external stimuli. It makes no distinction between stimuli. What becomes interpreted is the sensation of pleasant and unpleasant, and stored as memory, images that are stimulated for future reference. These are all survival instincts and thought creates an 'entity' that is experiencing. The sound of the people arguing may attract your ear, but if it is unthreatening to you, or unattractive to you, your attention will let it go. Attending is done with the whole body, not only the brain. It is only the brain that is making all the value judgements and creating time and space and the idea that you are in the middle of it. Observe it and see if it is true or not. In this way, there may be nothing called experience because there is no experiencer. True attending quiets the brain. Choosing stimulates it. True attending is not using the brain which is knowledge, the past. Test it, and see if it holds.

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Grigoris
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 19, 2018 10:04 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 9:28 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:45 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:55 am
It seems to me that this space where all the recording of experience takes place is a projected one fabricated by thought.
All experience/sensation is a projection and fabrication of mind (a thought). Even thoughts. So you better get used to it.
I thought I was implying that.
I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Sorry.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Bundokji
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Re: If mind = brain

Post by Bundokji » Sat May 19, 2018 10:19 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:00 am
The brain is constantly recording all external stimuli. It makes no distinction between stimuli. What becomes interpreted is the sensation of pleasant and unpleasant, and stored as memory, images that are stimulated for future reference. These are all survival instincts and thought creates an 'entity' that is experiencing. The sound of the people arguing may attract your ear, but if it is unthreatening to you, or unattractive to you, your attention will let it go. Attending is done with the whole body, not only the brain. It is only the brain that is making all the value judgements and creating time and space and the idea that you are in the middle of it. Observe it and see if it is true or not. In this way, there may be nothing called experience because there is no experiencer. True attending quiets the brain. Choosing stimulates it. True attending is not using the brain which is knowledge, the past. Test it, and see if it holds.
Any talk about the brain, from experiential point of view, is dogmatic. It is nothing original, pristine, or clear.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1023
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: If mind = brain

Post by Saengnapha » Sat May 19, 2018 11:35 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:19 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 10:00 am
The brain is constantly recording all external stimuli. It makes no distinction between stimuli. What becomes interpreted is the sensation of pleasant and unpleasant, and stored as memory, images that are stimulated for future reference. These are all survival instincts and thought creates an 'entity' that is experiencing. The sound of the people arguing may attract your ear, but if it is unthreatening to you, or unattractive to you, your attention will let it go. Attending is done with the whole body, not only the brain. It is only the brain that is making all the value judgements and creating time and space and the idea that you are in the middle of it. Observe it and see if it is true or not. In this way, there may be nothing called experience because there is no experiencer. True attending quiets the brain. Choosing stimulates it. True attending is not using the brain which is knowledge, the past. Test it, and see if it holds.
Any talk about the brain, from experiential point of view, is dogmatic. It is nothing original, pristine, or clear.
I'm not sure how we talk about the brain from any other point of view except the experiential. If we are talking factually, there is no problem.
I do get what you are talking about when you describe your descriptions.

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