vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

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dylanj
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vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by dylanj » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:00 am

i know this exists - can someone give me a citation/quote
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:15 pm

I can't help. But you can ordain on one tradition and "convert" across to another without doing anything extra. Some traditions may force you to reordain, but they have no grounds for that in the vinaya. That's just their preference and their little rule.
For example Dhammayut monks generally don't let Mahanikaya monks attend their pattimokhas, and they have to sit with the novices at the back of the meal line. This includes most of the monks in Thailand, including the Ajahn Chah monks. If they want to join a Dhammayut monastery they are basically forced to reordain. Totally unnecessary to force a monk to do such a thing, but that's their thing.
An ordination done properly, as clearly laid out in vinaya, is valid in all schools of Buddhism.
If a Theravada monk wants to convert across to Mahayana, I recall technically all they have to do is take the Bodhisatta's Vow to save all beings, and that's it.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:40 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:15 pm
If a Theravada monk wants to convert across to Mahayana, I recall technically all they have to do is take the Bodhisatta's Vow to save all beings, and that's it.
Yes, I think it's important to be clear what is meant here by "ordination". The extra Mahayana vows are not really "ordination" in the sense of ordaining as a monastic (Bhikku/Bhikkhuni/Bhikshu/Bhikshuni). Non-monastics also take those vows.

Mayahana and Theravada monastics use slightly different, but probably equally ancient, vinayas, which is why those who consider all of the early sects valid have no objection to Bhikshunis from Taiwan, etc participating in the ordination of Theravada Bhikkhunis (those who consider that the non-Theravada vinayas are invalid because they are from heretical sects will, of course, disagree).

I'm somewhat familiar with the Dhammayut exclusiveness. My impression is that it is relatively one-sided, and it also depends on the acceptability of the particular Bhikkhu. There are a number of comments by Ven Dhammanando about this sort of thing on the forum that you can search for. He's been both but was disrobed in between. And various monastaries maintain different levels of exclusivity.

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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by DNS » Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:22 am

dylanj wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:00 am
i know this exists - can someone give me a citation/quote
I don't believe there is one in the Vinaya because the Vinaya was recited at the First Council in approx. 483 BCE and at that time it was the "pre-sectarian" period of Buddhism of Dhamma-Vinaya; the various sects hadn't fully developed yet. By tradition, I assume you mean another Buddhist tradition; if you meant another religion, then yes that wouldn't be allowed.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:12 am

From the Buddhist Monastic Code:

"The twelve equivalent pārājikas include the eleven disqualified types who should not be ordained as bhikkhus in the first place. If they happen to be ordained, their ordination is invalid; once they are found out they must be expelled for life (Mv.I.61-68; see BMC2, Chapter 14 for details). They are— ... a bhikkhu who has ordained in another religion without first giving up his status as a bhikkhu..."

and a stream enterer cannot take another teacher than the buddha
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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dylanj
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by dylanj » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:49 am

I am talking about the need to disrobe if one is ordained outside the Buddha's Sangha, if they wish to seek ordination within it.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:03 am

dylanj wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:49 am
I am talking about the need to disrobe if one is ordained outside the Buddha's Sangha, if they wish to seek ordination within it.
Do you mean like a Christian monk becoming a Buddhist monk? Or...
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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dylanj
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by dylanj » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:09 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:03 am
dylanj wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:49 am
I am talking about the need to disrobe if one is ordained outside the Buddha's Sangha, if they wish to seek ordination within it.
Do you mean like a Christian monk becoming a Buddhist monk? Or...
yes that's one example
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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dylanj
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by dylanj » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:09 am

it's what Dhammarakkhito referred to
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Dhammanando
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:09 pm

Now at that time the one who had formerly been a member of another sect when he was being spoken to by his preceptor regarding a rule, having refuted the preceptor, went over to the fold of that same sect (as before), but having come back again, he asked the monks for ordination. The monks told this matter to the Lord. He said:

“Monks, he who was formerly a member of another sect … having refuted the preceptor and going over to the fold of that same sect (as before), on coming back should not be ordained. But, monks, whoever else was formerly a member of another sect and desires the going forth in this dhamma and discipline and desires ordination, to him you should grant probation for four months.

Two persons exempted from the need to undergo probation: believers in kammasakatavāda and Sakyans:
“Monks, if those come who are fire-worshipping matted-hair ascetics they may be ordained, probation should not be given to these. What is the reason for this? These, monks, affirm deeds, they affirm what ought to be done. If, monks, there come a former member of another sect who is a Sakyan by birth, he may be ordained, probation should not be given to him. I, monks, will give this special privilege to (my) relations.”
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solitarius colens non segnis,
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Ruud
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by Ruud » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:40 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:09 pm
Two persons exempted from the need to undergo probation: believers in kammasakatavāda and Sakyans:
“Monks, if those come who are fire-worshipping matted-hair ascetics they may be ordained, probation should not be given to these. What is the reason for this? These, monks, affirm deeds, they affirm what ought to be done. If, monks, there come a former member of another sect who is a Sakyan by birth, he may be ordained, probation should not be given to him. I, monks, will give this special privilege to (my) relations.”
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd1
That second exception is quite interesting. The first seems reasonable, since it helps towards right view, but the second seems subjective. Is any reason given (I didn’t see any when following the reference you provided)? Could it be respect for ones parents/ancestors/former teachers?
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:10 am

Ruud wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:40 am
Is any reason given (I didn’t see any when following the reference you provided)? Could it be respect for ones parents/ancestors/former teachers?
The Vinaya Commentary's explanation is that since they were members of the Buddha's own clan it could be safely assumed that Sakyan titthiyas would be deferential towards their clansman's Dhammavinaya and would not be seeking ordination in order to find fault with it.
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

„Sedem solitariam, cubitum solitarium
solitarius colens non segnis,
solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

Ruud
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by Ruud » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:07 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:10 am
The Vinaya Commentary's explanation is that since they were members of the Buddha's own clan it could be safely assumed that Sakyan titthiyas would be deferential towards their clansman's Dhammavinaya and would not be seeking ordination in order to find fault with it.
Thank you very much Bhante.
That indeed makes sense now, when considering the reason for the initial rule of that section, the one you quoted in your initial answer, about whether a person should be allowed back and needs probation or not. It is all based on respect for the Dhamma. We are so used to rhetoric about groups/tribes, that that becomes the first lens we look through, while the wholesome intentions get hidden.
Thanks again for the insight Bhante
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Grigoris
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Re: vinaya rule against ordaining in two traditions

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:09 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:09 pm
“Monks, if those come who are fire-worshipping matted-hair ascetics they may be ordained, probation should not be given to these. What is the reason for this? These, monks, affirm deeds, they affirm what ought to be done.
Interesting!
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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