What does it mean external namarupa ?

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DooDoot
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:50 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:48 am
Sn 12.19
I think the translations of this sutta might require subtle scrutiny. While I have no training in Pali, I will try a different translation although I could be completely wrong.
Avijjā­nīvara­ṇassa, bhikkhave, bālassa taṇhāya sampayuttassa evamayaṃ kāyo samudāgato. Iti ayañceva kāyo bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ, itthetaṃ dvayaṃ, dvayaṃ paṭicca phasso saḷevāyatanānisaḷevāyatanāni: ?, yehi phuṭṭho bālo sukhadukkhaṃ paṭi­saṃve­dayati etesaṃ vā aññatarena.

Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact.
1. "Fettered by craving" (taṇhā­saṃ­yoja­nā­naṃ) is a stock phrase in the suttas. However, SN 12.19 uses the word "sampayuttassa", which appears to not be found in any suttas apart from SN 12.19. Thanissaro translates "sampayuttassa" as "co-joined". The dictionary says: "associated with, connected".

2. "Samudāgato" is not found often in the suttas & when found is used in ordinary ways, such as "name & clan originate/result from conventions (MN 98)" or "Gotama's fame results/arises from perfect knowledge & conduct" (Atha kho anuttarāya vijjācaraṇasampadāya samaṇassa gotamassa yaso samudāgato). Therefore, the word "samudāgato" may not specifically refer to the process of Dependent Origination (even though the passage is related to Dependent Origination).

3. "Kāyo" does not necessarily mean "physical body". It can mean "group" or "collection" of aggregates, as found in the term "sakkaya".

4. I am not sure if the 1st translation of "this body" is accurate because I guess the word "ayaṃ" means "this" (which appears absent). In other words, the kāyo 1st mentioned could be "a body" rather than "this body". "A body" does not mean the physical body but a certain collection of aggregates occurring in the here & now (such as angry mentality, agitated body; or lustful mentality, lustful body, etc).

5. Therefore, the translation could be:
Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance, a 'body' ['collection' of certain aggregates] associated with craving in such a way (evamayaṃ) has resulted. So there is this [internal] body (collection) and external mentality-and-materiality: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact.
6. 'Kaya' or 'body' here, as suggested, might be the internal five aggregates of the person or 'fool'.

7. External nama-rupa is external mind-&-body, such as the mentality-&-body of your mother or any other person or animal.

8. Bahiddhā (external) ca nāmarūpaṃ sounds the same as external sense objects (cha bāhirāni āyatanāni; MN 148).

9. Bahiddhā: outside; outer.

10. Bahiddh’ ārammaṇāni are the outward sense-objects in the same meaning as bāhirāni āyatanāni.

11. A sutta:
And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being ‘I am,’ there comes to be ‘I am here,’ there comes to be ‘I am like this’ … ‘I am otherwise’ … ‘I am bad’ … ‘I am good’ … ‘I might be’ … ‘I might be here’ … ‘I might be like this’ … ‘I might be otherwise’ … ‘May I be’ … ‘May I be here’ … ‘May I be like this’ … ‘May I be otherwise’ … ‘I will be’ … ‘I will be here’ … ‘I will be like this’ … ‘I will be otherwise.’ These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.

“And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being ‘I am because of this (or: by means of this),’ there comes to be ‘I am here because of this,’ there comes to be ‘I am like this because of this’ … ‘I am otherwise because of this’ … ‘I am bad because of this’ … ‘I am good because of this’ … ‘I might be because of this’ … ‘I might be here because of this’ … ‘I might be like this because of this’ … ‘I might be otherwise because of this’ … ‘May I be because of this’ … ‘May I be here because of this’ … ‘May I be like this because of this’ … ‘May I be otherwise because of this’ … ‘I will be because of this’ … ‘I will be here because of this’ … ‘I will be like this because of this’ … ‘I will be otherwise because of this.’ These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.199
I might continue tomorrow. :zzz:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 17 times in total.

James Tan
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by James Tan » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:50 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:48 am
Sn 12.19
I think the translations of this sutta require great scrutiny. While I have no training in Pali, I will try to critique VBB's translation.
Do you mean the translation in English ?
I would think the English translation is ok , the problem lies in the Pali version .
Perhaps bhikkhu Dhammananado could help out ?

DooDoot
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:59 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:54 am
Do you mean the translation in English ?
Yes.
James Tan wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:54 am
I would think the English translation is ok , the problem lies in the Pali version .
I have looked at this sutta critically before & I suspect the English is the problem, even though the Pali also seems unusual. Previously, when I examined it, I did not have the Sutta Central search function to utlilize. The search function helps find where & when certain words are used in the suttas.
James Tan wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:54 am
Perhaps bhikkhu Dhammananado could help out ?
If you make a request, possibly.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:40 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:44 pm
Here is the parallel to sn12.19
sa 294 agama .
[...]

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。內有此識身,外有名色,此二因緣生觸。此六觸入所觸,愚癡無聞凡夫苦樂受覺,因起種種。云何為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。若黠慧者無明覆,愛緣繫得此識身。如是內有識身,外有名色,此二緣生六觸入處,六觸所觸故,智者生苦樂受覺,因起種種。何等為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。愚夫、黠慧,彼於我所修諸梵者,有何差別?」

If according to the translation , it says ,

Internal consciousness body ,
external namarupa .
There is a difference between two translation .
Perhaps someone could figure it out .
SA 294 follows something closer to the Sanskrit, I think, over something closer to the Pāli phrasing in choosing 識身 over 身. 識身 is likely from a form similar to savijñānakakāya, perhaps derived from something similar to the savijñānakaḥ kāyo from the Sanskrit parallel.

Pāli:
Iti ayañceva kāyo bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ, itthetaṃ dvayaṃ

Chinese:
內有此識身外有名色

Sanskrit:
ity ayañcāsya savijñānakaḥ kāyo bahirdhā ca nāmarūpam, evaṃ dvayam

The Chinese has no "itthetaṃ dvayaṃ/evaṃ dvayam" clause. Instead, it labels savijñānakakāya (識身) as adhyātma (內有) & nāmarūpa (名色) as bahirdhābhāva (外有) to differentiate them.

Compare this with its usage in:

1) adhyātmaṃ kāye bahirdhā kāye ’dhyātmabahirdhā kāye / 內身 [...] 外身 [...] 內外身 [...]
2) adhyātmaṃ vedanāsu bahirdhā vedanāsu adhyātmabahirdhā vedanāsu / 內受 [...] 外受 [...] 內外受 [...]
3) adhyātmaṃ citte bahirdhā citte ’dhyātmabahirdhā citte / 內心 [...] 外心 [...] 內外心 [...]
4) adhyātmaṃ dharmeṣu bahirdhā dharmeṣu adhyātmabahirdhā dharmeṣu dharmānupaśyī viharaty / 內法 [...] 外法 [...] 內外法法觀住

(Sanskrit Sarvāstivāda Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra with Chinese Sarvāstivāda Smṛtyupasthānasūtra)
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:21 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:40 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:44 pm
Here is the parallel to sn12.19
sa 294 agama .
[...]

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。內有此識身,外有名色,此二因緣生觸。此六觸入所觸,愚癡無聞凡夫苦樂受覺,因起種種。云何為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。若黠慧者無明覆,愛緣繫得此識身。如是內有識身,外有名色,此二緣生六觸入處,六觸所觸故,智者生苦樂受覺,因起種種。何等為六?眼觸入處,耳、鼻、舌、身、意觸入處。愚夫、黠慧,彼於我所修諸梵者,有何差別?」

If according to the translation , it says ,

Internal consciousness body ,
external namarupa .
There is a difference between two translation .
Perhaps someone could figure it out .
SA 294 follows something closer to the Sanskrit, I think, over something closer to the Pāli phrasing in choosing 識身 over 身. 識身 is likely from a form similar to savijñānakakāya, perhaps derived from something similar to the savijñānakaḥ kāyo from the Sanskrit parallel.

Pāli:
Iti ayañceva kāyo bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ, itthetaṃ dvayaṃ

Chinese:
內有此識身外有名色

Sanskrit:
ity ayañcāsya savijñānakaḥ kāyo bahirdhā ca nāmarūpam, evaṃ dvayam

The Chinese has no "itthetaṃ dvayaṃ/evaṃ dvayam" clause. Instead, it labels savijñānakakāya (識身) as adhyātma (內有) & nāmarūpa (名色) as bahirdhābhāva (外有) to differentiate them.

Compare this with its usage in:

1) adhyātmaṃ kāye bahirdhā kāye ’dhyātmabahirdhā kāye / 內身 [...] 外身 [...] 內外身 [...]
2) adhyātmaṃ vedanāsu bahirdhā vedanāsu adhyātmabahirdhā vedanāsu / 內受 [...] 外受 [...] 內外受 [...]
3) adhyātmaṃ citte bahirdhā citte ’dhyātmabahirdhā citte / 內心 [...] 外心 [...] 內外心 [...]
4) adhyātmaṃ dharmeṣu bahirdhā dharmeṣu adhyātmabahirdhā dharmeṣu dharmānupaśyī viharaty / 內法 [...] 外法 [...] 內外法法觀住

(Sanskrit Sarvāstivāda Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra with Chinese Sarvāstivāda Smṛtyupasthānasūtra)
Something that people might find interesting, touching directly on Bālapaṇḍitasūtra (SN 12.19/SA 294), a debate between the Venerable Harivarman, a Mahāsāṅghika Bhikṣu with Sautrāntika (early rejectors of Abhidharma, called "those who rely on sūtrāṇi"/sautrāntikāḥ) sympathies, and an unnamed Sarvāstivādin Abhidharmika opponent concerning the authenticity of the Abhidharma system of caitasikāḥ:
2.3.4 Harivarman's Argument 4 (60.12, 62.8-9, 64.7)
(60.12) Harivarman quotes a sūtra with a parallel in SĀ, which states that for a sentient being internally there is the body with consciousness (savijñānakakāya), and externally there is name-and-form (nāmarūpa). These two, namely savijñānakakāya and nāmarūpa, constitute a dyad (dvayaṃ). Also in this sūtra passage the Buddha refers to the sentient being as a "body with consciousness" (savijñānakakāya) and does not mention any caitasikas.

(62.8) The opponent's answer is based on the same sūtra and claims that the reference to "external" (nāmarūpa) is equivalent to mentioning caitasikas, because in the Abhidharma analysis of the twelve bases (āyatana), caitasikas are included in the dharmāyatana, the object of manovijñāna, both of which are included in nāmarūpa.

(62.9) The opponent further states that actually there are three things mentioned in this sūtra passage: the "body with consciousness" (savijñānakakāya) can be analyzed into (1) consciousness and (2) the body, which is equivalent to the faculties (indriya), and the (3) external name-and-form (nāmarūpa), which are external objects. So in total there are three things and not only two. Also in the sūtra the Buddha has used "all external signs" (外一切相 bahirdāsarvanimittā) in the place of external nāmarūpa, and these "all external signs" include caitasikas.

(64.7) Harivarman replies that to understand the external nāmarūpa as including caitasikas is the opponent's own speculation and is not the intention of the quoted sūtra. Here, the external nāmarūpa should be understood as the object (ālambana) of mind.
Comments:
This round of exchanges between Harivarman and this opponent is fasinating in terms of both textual and doctrinal exegesis. In 60.12, Harivarman quotes a sūtra, very likely SĀ 294, which states, for a sentient being "internally there is the body with consciousness (savijñānakakāya), externally there is name-and-form (nāmarūpa); these two are a dyad (dvaya)." Dependent on this dyad there is contact (sparśa), which is six kinds in accordance with the six bases (āyatana). Harivarman points out that here the sūtra says that the internal savijñānakakāya and the external nāmarūpa constitute a dyad, which precludes any other things such as the caitasikas. Moreover, he also points out that in referring to a sentient being the sūtra uses the term "body with consciousness" (savijñānakakāya); again it mentions only vijñāna and not any caitasika.

The opponent answers (62.8) that actually the dyad mentioned in the sūtra does not leave out caitasikas because the "external nāmarūpa" includes caitasikas. He also explains that they are called "external" because they are included in the dharmāyatana within the category of twelve āyatanas, and the dharmāyatana is "external" in contrast to manāyatana which is "internal". Here, the opponent, who is a supporter of caitasikas, understands nāmarūpa as the material (rūpa) and the four non-material skandhas (vedanā, saṃjñā, saṃskāra, & vijñāna) in the standard Abhidharma interpretation, and the four non-material skandhas includes all caitasikas. Furthermore, when they are taken as objects of manovijñāna, they are included in the dharmāyatana, which is external in contrast to the internal manovijñāna. The opponent also points out (62.9) that, although the sūtra mentions the internal and the external as a "dyad", strictly speaking "internal" savijñānakakāya can be further analyzed as the physical body and the six internal faculties (indriya). As a result, the "dyad" should not be taken as definitive but vcan be further analyzed into three. And the "external nāmarūpa" represents the external objects (ālambana) of the indriyas. In 62.9, the opponent quotes another sūtra, which uses "all external signs" (外一切相 bahirdāsarvanimittā) in place of "internal nāmarūpa". The opponent claims that in this case "all external signs" include caitasikas, which is basically the same argument as including caitasikas in the dharmāyatana.

The sūtra quoted in 60.12 by Harivarman has a parallel in SĀ no. 294, in which the Buddha describes the cognitive process: dependent on the dyad of savijñānakakāya and nāmarūpa there is contact which occurs through the six bases. In 62.8-9, the opponent follows the same analysis by placing bahirdāsarvanimittā within the dharmāyatana as objects of manovijñāna. And in 62.8-9, the opponent is likely quoting two sūtras with parallels in the Chinese SĀ (nos. 198, 199). In these sūtras, the Buddha instructs Rāhula that in order to get rid of the "I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit" (我造我所造我慢使繫著 ahaṃkāramamaṅkāramānānuśaya) in regard to both savijñānakakāya and bahirdāsarvanimittā, one should contemplate the six internal āyatanas (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind) as well as the six external āyatanas (form, sound, smell, taste, touch, and dharmas). All of these whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, beautiful or ugly, far or near, are all not oneself (非我), not different from self (不異我), and not mutually inclusive (不相在). These two sūtras in the Chinese SĀ do not have exact parallels in Pāli; the closest are S no.18.21-22, 22.91-92. In these suttas, the opening is exactly the same as in the Chinese sūtras: Rāhula approaches the Buddha and the Buddha teaching him what to do in order to get rid of the "I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit" (我造我所造我慢使繫著 ahaṃkāramamaṅkāramānānuśaya) with regard to both savijñānakakāya and bahirdāsarvanimittā. But in the main body of the Pāli suttas, the Buddha states that one should analyze the five skandhas instead of the twelve āyatanas as in the Chinese SĀ sūtras. However, it should be noted that in the Chinese SĀ, two other sūtras (SĀ nos. 23-4) have the same content as the Pāli suttas in which "all external signs" are analyzed as the five skandhas.

Here, we see a textual issue that is connected with a doctrinal issue. Harivarman quotes a sūtra with a parallel in the SĀ sūtra no. 294, which mentions the dyad of internal savijñānakakāya and external nāmarūpa; the corresponding Pāli sutta (S no.12.19) agrees with the Chinese version at this point. Then in 62.8-9, the opponent quotes a sūtra with a parallel in SĀ 198-9 in which the dyad is not savijñānakakāya-nāmarūpa but savijñānakakāya-bahirdāsarvanimittā. Because of the parallelism of the two pairs, it is natural for a commentator to take the nāmarūpa and sarvanimittā as equivalent. But we also see the discrepancy in the analysis of the latter dyad: all the Pāli suttas analyze "all external signs" as the five khandhas, which the sūtra quoted by Harivarman and his opponent analyze the dyad in temrs of the twelve āyatanas. The related doctrinal problem is the question of what exactly nāmarūpa is. Apparently, there are different opinions. In 62.8-9 the opponent follows a standard Abhidharma interpretation that understands nāmarūpa as the five skandhas: rūpa is rūpaskandha and nāma corresponds to the four non-material skandhas, which in turn include all the caitasikas in the Abhidharma system. But in 64.7, Harivarman summarily rejects this interpretation. He says that such as understanding of nāmarūpa is only the opponent's speculation (saṃjñāvikalpa 憶想分別) and not what the sūtra intended. A proper understanding of nāmarūpa equates it with objects of mind.

The fact that all of the Pāli versions of the relevant sūtra uniformly analyze nāmarūpa as the five khandhas, while the corresponding Chinese versions of the sūtra in SĀ have both twelve āyatana and give skandhas, indicates that the compilation of the Pāli Saṃyuttanikāya is likely redacted, and possibly in accordance with Abhidhamma interpretations. The fact that the Chinese SĀ preserves both versions of the sūtra suggests that the sūtras were not necessarily uniform on this point. It is not unreasonable to assume that the compiler(s) of the Pāli Saṃyuttanikāya may have made an effort to ensure that the suttas in the collect were uniform and coherent and, by doing so, may voluntarily or involuntarily have allowed later Abhidhamma doctrines to influence the choice of which suttas to include in the collection as well as their form.
(Qian Lin, Mind in Dispute: The Section on Mind in Harivarman's Tattvasiddhi, 96-99, The dispute on caitasika)
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by dylanj » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:29 pm

it means that nama-rupa is external to the body (projected out from the conscious body, performed by the conscious body) & is also a great example of why it is utterly baseless to translate nama-rupa as mind-body
susukhaṃ vata nibbānaṃ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṃ;
asokaṃ virajaṃ khemaṃ,
yattha dukkhaṃ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ panītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:01 pm

Namarupa is seen differently in the Agamas (SA 298) and the Nikayas (SN 12.2).

The former treats namarupa as the external namarupa, viz the khandhas.

The latter as the internal namarupa, viz: contact (transfer of property of the external khandhas, to the internal sal ayatanani), feeling, perception, sankhara (lit. made with, commingle) [= volition/choice, made of the commingling of the khandhas, with the sal ayatanani], and manasikara (lit. [Whatever] is made with the mano).

Which has the effect of making these khandhas "ours", as clinging khandhas.

https://justpaste.it/files/justpaste/d2 ... atiman.png
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
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And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

James Tan
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm

When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
:reading:

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、六識身、六觸身、六受身、六愛身。
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, ṣaḍvijñānakāya, ṣaṭsparśakāyāḥ, ṣaḍvedanākāyāḥ, ṣaṭ tṛṣṇākāyāḥ.
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, the 6-consciousness-group, 6 contact groupings, 6 feeling groupings, 6 craving groupings
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

ToVincent
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:05 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?

Oh come on James. You know better !
Have you ever heard of a "sound-consciousness" in the suttas ?
Isn't it just an ear consciousness ?

Don't let yourself be dragged by these neo-brahmanic/hinduist/tantric savant terms, that make the internal a continuous self.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:33 am

ToVincent wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:05 pm
Don't let yourself be dragged by these neo-brahmanic/hinduist/tantric savant terms, that make the internal a continuous self.
You mean Buddhavacana? :thinking: :sage:

From EBTs, no less. Where's the tantra? Where's the esoteric secrets?
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

James Tan
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、六識身、六觸身、六受身、六愛身。
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, ṣaḍvijñānakāya, ṣaṭsparśakāyāḥ, ṣaḍvedanākāyāḥ, ṣaṭ tṛṣṇākāyāḥ.
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, the 6-consciousness-group, 6 contact groupings, 6 feeling groupings, 6 craving groupings
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
:reading:

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:06 am

If I may summarize the above lengthy interlude:
James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:28 pm
爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。

At that time , the World Honoured One told the bhikkhus , “Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this consciousness body has thereby originated.

[...]
I do not mean to try to compete with you for a "better" translation. I see you are working with Ven Sujato's parallels and adapting the text to the Pāli. I myself as you know am just another amatuer looking at these texts as best I can.

Looking at how the text incorporates 識身, I would be tempted to see:

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。
At that time, the Bhagavān said to the myriad bhikṣavaḥ: "The ignorant assutavat (non-listener 無聞) pṛthagjana (worldling 凡夫) is by ignorance restrained (avidyayā nivṛtasya 無明覆), is by craving conditioned (tṛṣṇāpratyayena 愛緣) and connected (saṃyuktasyaivam 繫), there is had, with its consciousness, a body (samudāgataḥ savijñānakaḥ kāyaḥ 得此識身).

識身 may be even more recognizable as the Pāli viññāṇakāya. With this in mind, we also can read the ending as

愛緣繫,得此識身 --> tṛṣṇāpratyayena saṃyuktasyaivam samudāgatāḥ vijñānakāyāḥ --> by craving conditioned and connected there are had consciousness classes (but my Sanskrit is at its absolute limit there and that by all rights may not be correct)

consciousness classes is adapted from Ven Sujato's rendering of Chayime, bhikkhave, viññāṇakāyā from Sattaṭṭhānasutta SN 22.57 ("There are these[, monks,] six classes of consciousness.").

That rendering, particularly at the end, might help dispel some ambiguities that "consciousness body" might present as a rendering for 識身.
James Tan wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、[...]
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, [...]
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, [...]
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
I suppose that is possible. The written record seems to be against him, though.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:42 am, edited 8 times in total.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

chownah
Posts: 7264
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:07 am

James Tan wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:22 pm
When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ?
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、六識身、六觸身、六受身、六愛身。
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, ṣaḍvijñānakāya, ṣaṭsparśakāyāḥ, ṣaḍvedanākāyāḥ, ṣaṭ tṛṣṇākāyāḥ.
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, the 6-consciousness-group, 6 contact groupings, 6 feeling groupings, 6 craving groupings
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
How did that monk come to this conclusion? It is not very persuasive to just say that there is a monk which holds some view.....many monks hold views which are wrong.
chownah

James Tan
Posts: 371
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:50 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:06 am
If I may summarize the above lengthy interlude:
James Tan wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:28 pm
爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。

At that time , the World Honoured One told the bhikkhus , “Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this consciousness body has thereby originated.

[...]
I do not mean to try to compete with you for a "better" translation. I see you are working with Ven Sujato's parallels and adapting the text to the Pāli. I myself as you know am just another amatuer looking at these texts as best I can.

Looking at how the text incorporates 識身, I would be tempted to see:

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫無明覆、愛緣繫,得此識身。
At that time, the Bhagavān said to the myriad bhikṣavaḥ: "The ignorant assutavat (non-listener 無聞) pṛthagjana (worldling 凡夫) is by ignorance restrained (avidyayā nivṛtasya 無明覆), is by craving conditioned (tṛṣṇāpratyayena 愛緣) and connected (saṃyuktasyaivam 繫), there is had, with its consciousness, a body (samudāgataḥ savijñānakaḥ kāyaḥ 得此識身).

識身 may be even more recognizable as the Pāli viññāṇakāya. With this in mind, we also can read the ending as

愛緣繫,得此識身 --> tṛṣṇāpratyayena saṃyuktasyaivam samudāgatāḥ vijñānakāyāḥ --> by craving conditioned and connected there are had consciousness classes (but my Sanskrit is at its absolute limit there and that by all rights may not be correct)

consciousness classes is adapted from Ven Sujato's rendering of Chayime, bhikkhave, viññāṇakāyā from Sattaṭṭhānasutta SN 22.57 ("There are these[, monks,] six classes of consciousness.").

That rendering, particularly at the end, might help dispel some ambiguities that "consciousness body" might present as a rendering for 識身.
James Tan wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:48 pm
Both. Internal-external. IMO of course.

六內入處、六外入處、[...]
ṣaḍādhyātmikānyāyatanāni, ṣaṭ bāhyānyāyatanāni, [...]
the 6 internal sensory loci, the 6 external sensory loci, [...]
(Sarvāstivāda Chachakkasūtra SA 304, parallel Ṣattṛ́ṣṇākāyasūtra SA 330 is virtually identical in these groupings)

IMO 識身觸身受身愛身是內外法內外心. That is, inner-outer. After the internal bases 內處 & external bases 外處 touch 觸 IMO there is no inner/outer, all is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu 內外法 all is adhyātmabahirdhācitte 內外心.
According to a monk i study with the inner outer expression is later addition .
I suppose that is possible. The written record seems to be against him, though.
I am not here to argue with anyone . In this case , I supposed he is right . The Buddha's teachings always can be recognized as using :
Six sense bases
Six classes of consciousnesses
Six sense objects

I think you could figure it out .

Ps . Btw , I am not working with sujato or anything .
:reading:

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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:29 am

Parallels mean sutta/sutra that have the same text in the Nikayas AND the Agamas.
Two same texts in the Nikayas (or in the Agamas) do not make a parallel; and can't be relied upon as EBT.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:03 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:29 am
Parallels mean sutta/sutra that have the same text in the Nikayas AND the Agamas.
Two same texts in the Nikayas (or in the Agamas) do not make a parallel; and can't be relied upon as EBT.
These are EBTs. They are substantiated in the Pāli Nikāyā. Chachakkasūtra = Chachakkasutta. They have the same content. The Chinese says "inner". Big deal.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

ToVincent
Posts: 418
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:03 pm
These are EBTs. They are substantiated in the Pāli Nikāyā. Chachakkasūtra = Chachakkasutta. They have the same content. The Chinese says "inner". Big deal.
The problem is not so much in these petty discrepancies. The problem is that you are always mixing up your own interpretations in a sea of pseudo evidencies.

James' question was:
"When we say the 6 consciousnesses , do we refer it as internal or external ? "


And the Nikaya text says:
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Etc...


At the eye ! - The internal !

Then" contact" is the tranfer of properties of the external dhatus & khandhas to the internal.
For instance, when you see a Picasso, you transfer the feeling of picasso (an external nama,) to yourself. And you are craving for it. And you are appropriating it.
But "it's not yours" says Buddha.
So I don't see where you get the following in the sutta:
"All is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu
All is adhyātmabahirdhācitte

You are one of these "universal consciousness" kind of person, trying desperately to make Buddhism such.
But that is not Buddhism. That is Vedic Brahmanism, Hinduism, tantrism, theosophism, ... etc.

Transfer of properties (phassa) and appropriation (upadana) do not mean that there is a "universal consciousness". It means that "it's wrong". Period !

Form, feeling, and perception,
and formations (determinations) —
‘I am not this, this isn’t mine,’
Thus one is detached from it.
SN 4.16

The above are just the external nama; as per Sa 298.
Contact (transfer of property), feeling, perception (inquiry and assumptions), choices (personal determinations), and whatever is "made" by the mind (manasikara) - is the internal nama; (as per SN12. 2).
-
-
Last edited by ToVincent on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
Coëmgenu
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Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:51 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm
And the Nikaya text says:
Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Etc...


At the eye ! - The internal !
Irrelevant? The contact is occurring between two things. Unless it is actually you who are the Yogācāra interpreter and you think forms only exist in the mind of the perceiver.
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:36 pm
So I don't see where you get the following in the sutta:
"All is adhyātmabahirdhādharmeṣu
All is adhyātmabahirdhācitte

You are one of these "universal consciousness" kind of person, trying desperately to make Buddhism such.
But that is not Buddhism. That is Vedic Brahmanism, Hinduism, tantrism, theosophism, ... etc.
This doesn't deserve a responce. You should feel embarrassed for having written it.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

ToVincent
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: What does it mean external namarupa ?

Post by ToVincent » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:13 pm

What is Yogācāra anyway ¿¿¿¿
That's the problem with people always looking beyond Buddhism, and making it EBT.
I don't know post-"buddhist" stuff. I have parallels, and pre-Buddhist Vedic lexicography to make things clear. And I rely lightly on Chinese translations (late interpretations); if only to see if the content is the same with the Nikayas.
-
And I don't feel embarassed at all.
-
-
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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