What does it mean by bodily witness ?

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James Tan
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What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by James Tan » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:29 am

Greetings ,

I have a question , What do you mean by bodily witness , and bodily witness by sequel and without sequel ?

And what does it mean by touching with his body ?

_______________________________________________

Aṅguttara Nikāya

9. Book of the Nines

43. Bodily Witness
[Udayin:] “‘Bodily witness, bodily witness,’ it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness?”

[Ananda:] “There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there [see ]. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness, though with a sequel.


_______________________________________________

Thanks .
:anjali:

SarathW
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Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by SarathW » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:46 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
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Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by paul » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka:

"káya-sakkhi: 'body-witness', is one of the 7 noble disciples (s. ariya-puggala, B.). He is one who "in his own person (lit. body) has attained the 8 deliverances (vimokkha, q.v.), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, the cankers have partly come to extinction" (Pug. 32). In A. IX, 44 it is said: "A monk, o brother, attains the 1st absorption (jhána, q.v.), and as far as this domain reaches,- so far he has realized it in his own person. Thus the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in certain respects. (The same is then repeated with regard to the 7 higher absorptions). Further again, o brother, the monk attains the extinction of perception and feeling (s. nirodha-samápatti), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, all the cankers come to extinction. Thus, o brother, the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in all respects."

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:07 am

paul wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:48 pm
Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka:

"káya-sakkhi: 'body-witness', is one of the 7 noble disciples (s. ariya-puggala, B.). He is one who "in his own person (lit. body) has attained the 8 deliverances (vimokkha, q.v.), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, the cankers have partly come to extinction" (Pug. 32). In A. IX, 44 it is said: "A monk, o brother, attains the 1st absorption (jhána, q.v.), and as far as this domain reaches,- so far he has realized it in his own person. Thus the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in certain respects. (The same is then repeated with regard to the 7 higher absorptions). Further again, o brother, the monk attains the extinction of perception and feeling (s. nirodha-samápatti), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, all the cankers come to extinction. Thus, o brother, the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in all respects."
Thanks Paul .

«He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there»

Could you explain what is " remains touching with his body " ?
And what is " in whatever way there is an opening there " ?

paul
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by paul » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:10 am

Could you explain what is " remains touching with his body " ?
As it says in the dictionary definition, this means "realised in his own person".
And what is " in whatever way there is an opening there " ?
This means the jhanas:
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 2-piya.pdf

"1.3 THE OPENING. The “opening” (okāsa) that the (Pañcāla,caṇḍa) Sambādha Sutta refers to are the dhyanas, or more specifically, the nine progressive abodes (anupubba,vihāra).8 They are sometimes loosely called “the 9 dhyanas,” that is, the 4 form dhyanas (rpa jhāna) [§§3-6], the 4 formless dhyanas (arpa jhāna) [§§7-10], and the cessation of perception and feeling (saññā,vedayita,nirodha or nirodha,- samāpatti) [§11].9
The dhyanas are called “openings” (okāsa) because they are the only true way out of physical exist- ence. In meditation, the body becomes so calm and still that we need not bother about it any more. Free from all sensual distraction, we can now full focus on the mind. When the mind is fully and blissfully focussed on itself, result in a profoundly great and still clarity, it is called dhyana (jhāna).10
THE 4 FORM DHYANAS. One dhyana is the basis for another, and it all begins with the first dhyana.11 With just a gentle attention or subtle thought (this is “initial application” or vitakka), we keep the mind on the beautiful stillness, and just let it be there (this is “sustained application” or vicāra). These are our last thoughts, as it were, because, zest and bliss (pīti,sukha) will pervade our mind that is fully focussed in the present moment of the joyful stillness. This is the first dhyana.12"
Last edited by paul on Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:46 am

paul wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:10 am
Could you explain what is " remains touching with his body " ?
As it says in the dictionary definition, this means "realised in his own person".
And what is " in whatever way there is an opening there " ?
This means the jhanas:
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 2-piya.pdf
Thanks . :anjali:

chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by chownah » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:05 am

Here is a sutta which talks about the meaning of the opening:
https://suttacentral.net/en/an9.42
chownah

pinit29
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:03 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by pinit29 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:31 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:07 am
paul wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:48 pm
Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka:

"káya-sakkhi: 'body-witness', is one of the 7 noble disciples (s. ariya-puggala, B.). He is one who "in his own person (lit. body) has attained the 8 deliverances (vimokkha, q.v.), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, the cankers have partly come to extinction" (Pug. 32). In A. IX, 44 it is said: "A monk, o brother, attains the 1st absorption (jhána, q.v.), and as far as this domain reaches,- so far he has realized it in his own person. Thus the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in certain respects. (The same is then repeated with regard to the 7 higher absorptions). Further again, o brother, the monk attains the extinction of perception and feeling (s. nirodha-samápatti), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, all the cankers come to extinction. Thus, o brother, the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in all respects."
Thanks Paul .

«He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there»

Could you explain what is " remains touching with his body " ?
And what is " in whatever way there is an opening there " ?
I think what he is talking about is, Indriyasamvara(5)(purity of conduct consisting in the restraint of the senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body). By restraint these 5 senses, one can say he remains touching his rupa(body).

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:27 am

pinit29 wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:31 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:07 am
paul wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:48 pm
Buddhist Dictionary, Nyanatiloka:

"káya-sakkhi: 'body-witness', is one of the 7 noble disciples (s. ariya-puggala, B.). He is one who "in his own person (lit. body) has attained the 8 deliverances (vimokkha, q.v.), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, the cankers have partly come to extinction" (Pug. 32). In A. IX, 44 it is said: "A monk, o brother, attains the 1st absorption (jhána, q.v.), and as far as this domain reaches,- so far he has realized it in his own person. Thus the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in certain respects. (The same is then repeated with regard to the 7 higher absorptions). Further again, o brother, the monk attains the extinction of perception and feeling (s. nirodha-samápatti), and after wisely understanding the phenomena, all the cankers come to extinction. Thus, o brother, the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in all respects."
Thanks Paul .

«He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there»

Could you explain what is " remains touching with his body " ?
And what is " in whatever way there is an opening there " ?
I think what he is talking about is, Indriyasamvara(5)(purity of conduct consisting in the restraint of the senses (eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body). By restraint these 5 senses, one can say he remains touching his rupa(body).
So , the meaning of touching with his body is restraining the 5 senses or mean realized in his own person ? Which one ?

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:31 am

paul wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:10 am
Could you explain what is " remains touching with his body " ?
As it says in the dictionary definition, this means "realised in his own person".
And what is " in whatever way there is an opening there " ?
This means the jhanas:
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 2-piya.pdf

"1.3 THE OPENING. The “opening” (okāsa) that the (Pañcāla,caṇḍa) Sambādha Sutta refers to are the dhyanas, or more specifically, the nine progressive abodes (anupubba,vihāra).8 They are sometimes loosely called “the 9 dhyanas,” that is, the 4 form dhyanas (rpa jhāna) [§§3-6], the 4 formless dhyanas (arpa jhāna) [§§7-10], and the cessation of perception and feeling (saññā,vedayita,nirodha or nirodha,- samāpatti) [§11].9
The dhyanas are called “openings” (okāsa) because they are the only true way out of physical exist- ence. In meditation, the body becomes so calm and still that we need not bother about it any more. Free from all sensual distraction, we can now full focus on the mind. When the mind is fully and blissfully focussed on itself, result in a profoundly great and still clarity, it is called dhyana (jhāna).10
THE 4 FORM DHYANAS. One dhyana is the basis for another, and it all begins with the first dhyana.11 With just a gentle attention or subtle thought (this is “initial application” or vitakka), we keep the mind on the beautiful stillness, and just let it be there (this is “sustained application” or vicāra). These are our last thoughts, as it were, because, zest and bliss (pīti,sukha) will pervade our mind that is fully focussed in the present moment of the joyful stillness. This is the first dhyana.12"
So ,
Is it the meaning of touching with the body is same with bodily witness ? Meaning realized in his own person ?

paul
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by paul » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:52 am

It means he has achieved jhana and become liberated that way, and because jhana is a physical experience he is said to be a ‘body- witness’, ie he has proved the teaching through bodily experience.

There are seven types of noble disciples in all:

"He who is filled with resolution (adhimokkha) and, in considering the formations as impermanent (anicca), gains the faculty of faith, he, at the moment of the path to Stream-winning (A.1) is called a faith-devotee (saddhánusárí); (2) at the seven higher stages (A. 2-8) he is called a faith-liberated one (saddhá-vimutta). (3) He who is filled with tranquillity and, in considering the formations as miserable (dukkha), gains the faculty of concentration, he in every respect is considered as a body-witness (káya-sakkhí). (4) He, however, who after reaching the absorptions of the immaterial sphere has attained the highest fruition (of Holiness), he is a both-ways-liberated one (ubhato-bhága-vimutta). (5) He who is filled with wisdom and, in considering the formations as not-self (anattá), gains the faculty of wisdom, he is at the moment of Stream-winning a Dhamma-devotee (dhammánusárí), (6) at the later stages (A. 2-7) a vision-attainer (ditthippatta), (7) at the highest stage (A. 8) a wisdom-liberated one (paññávimutta).”—- ariya-puggula, “Buddhist Dictionary”, Nyanatiloka

paññá-vimutti: 'deliverance through wisdom' (or understanding'), signifies, according to Com. to A.V, 142, the wisdom associated with the fruition of holiness (arahatta-phala). In Pug. 31 and similarly in M. 70, it is said: "A monk may not have reached in his own person the 8 liberations (=jhána, q.v.), but through his wisdom the cankers have come to extinction in him. Such a person is called wisdom-liberated" (paññá-vimutta). - Com. to Pug.: "He may be one of five persons: either a practiser of bare insight (sukkha-vipassako, q.v.), or one who has attained to Holiness after rising from one of the absorptions." ibid

chownah
Posts: 7596
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:21 pm

James tan,
Nyanatiloka's dictionary is a great reference you can find it here:

https://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bu ... ict.n2.htm

Its got stuff like "Body-witness: kāya-sakkhi." with a link which directs you to:
Kāya-sakkhi: 'body-witness', is one of the 7 Noble Disciples see: ariya-puggala B.. He is one who in his own person lit. body has attained the 8 deliverances vimokkha, and after wisely understanding the phenomena, the fermentations have partly come to ceasing Pug. 32. In A. IX, 44 it is said: A monk, o brother, attains the 1st absorption jhāna, and as far as this domain reaches,- so far he has realized it in his own person. Thus the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in certain respects. The same is then repeated with regard to the 7 higher absorptions. Further again, o brother, the Bhikkhu attains the ceasing of perception and feeling see: nirodha-samāpatti and after wisely understanding the phenomena, all the fermentations come to ceasing. Thus, o brother, the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in all respects.
and a link for vimokkha which directs you to:
Vimokkha: 'liberation' deliverance. I. the 3; II. the 8.

I. The 3 liberations are: 1. the conditionless or signless liberation animitta-v 2. the desireless liberation apanihita-v. the emptiness or void liberation suññatā -v They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' vimokkha-mukha Vis.M XXI, 66ff, as they are three different approaches to the paths of Nobility. - See visuddhi VI, 8. Cf. Vis XXI, 6ff, 121ff; Pts.M. II. Vimokkha-Kathā.


1.;Whosoever being filled with determination adhimokkha, considers all constructions as impermanent anicca such a one attains the conditionless liberation. 2. Whosoever being filled with tranquillity, considers all constructions as painful dukkha such a one attains the desireless liberation. 3. Whosoever being filled with understanding, considers all constructions as without a self anattā such a one attains the emptiness liberation; Vis.M XXI, 70 = Pts.M. II, p. 58.

1 and 2 are mentioned and explained in M. 43, under the name of deliverances of mind ceto-vimutti. - 2 and 3 appear in Dhs 344ff, 353ff in the section on supra-mundane consciousness see Atthasālini Tr., p. 299ff.

II. The 8 liberations attha vimokkha occur frequently in the texts A. VIII, 66; D. 16, etc. and are described as follows:


There are 8 liberations, o Bhikkhus. Which are these?

1 ''Whilst remaining in the fine-material sphere rūpī one perceives material forms: this is the first liberation.

2;Not perceiving corporcal forms on one's own person, one perceives corporcal forms externally: this is the 2nd liberation.

3 ''By thinking of the beautiful, one is filled with confidence: this is the 3rd liberation.

4;Through the total overcoming of the materiality-perceptions, the vanishing of the reflex-perceptions, and the non-attention to the multiformity-perceptions, with the idea 'Unbounded is space', one reaches the sphere of unbounded space ākāsānañcāyatana and abides therein: this is the 4th liberation.

5;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of unbounded space, and with the idea 'Unbounded is consciousness', one reaches the sphere of unbounded consciousness viññānañcāyatana and abides therein: this is the 5th liberation.

6;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of unbounded consciousness, and with the idea 'Nothing is there', one reaches the sphere of nothingness ākiñeaññāyatana and abides therein: this is the 6th liberation.

7;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of nothingness, one reaches the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception n'eva-saññā -nāsaññāyatana and abides therein: this is the 7th liberation.

8;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, one reaches the ceasing of perception and feeling see: nirodha-samāpatti this is the 8th liberation.

These, o Bhikkhus, are the 8 kinds of liberation


For 1-3, see: abhibhāyatana for 4-7, see: jhāna for 8, see: nir odha-samāpatti.

By 3 is meant the attainment of the fine-material absorptions jhāna by means of concentrating the mind on perfectly pure and bright colours as objects of the kasina. According to Pts.M. this mental state is produced also by concentrating the mind on the 4 sublime states, i.e. all-embracing kindness, Pity, sympathetic joy and equanimity, in consequence of which allbeings appear perfectly pure and glorified, and thus the mind turns to the beautiful.

See Pts.M. II, Vimokkha-kathā; Atthasālini Tr., p. 255; App
chownah

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What does it mean by bodily witness ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:57 pm

chownah wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:21 pm
James tan,
Nyanatiloka's dictionary is a great reference you can find it here:

https://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bu ... ict.n2.htm

Its got stuff like "Body-witness: kāya-sakkhi." with a link which directs you to:
Kāya-sakkhi: 'body-witness', is one of the 7 Noble Disciples see: ariya-puggala B.. He is one who in his own person lit. body has attained the 8 deliverances vimokkha, and after wisely understanding the phenomena, the fermentations have partly come to ceasing Pug. 32. In A. IX, 44 it is said: A monk, o brother, attains the 1st absorption jhāna, and as far as this domain reaches,- so far he has realized it in his own person. Thus the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in certain respects. The same is then repeated with regard to the 7 higher absorptions. Further again, o brother, the Bhikkhu attains the ceasing of perception and feeling see: nirodha-samāpatti and after wisely understanding the phenomena, all the fermentations come to ceasing. Thus, o brother, the Blessed One calls such a person a body-witness in all respects.
and a link for vimokkha which directs you to:
Vimokkha: 'liberation' deliverance. I. the 3; II. the 8.

I. The 3 liberations are: 1. the conditionless or signless liberation animitta-v 2. the desireless liberation apanihita-v. the emptiness or void liberation suññatā -v They are also called 'the triple gateway to liberation' vimokkha-mukha Vis.M XXI, 66ff, as they are three different approaches to the paths of Nobility. - See visuddhi VI, 8. Cf. Vis XXI, 6ff, 121ff; Pts.M. II. Vimokkha-Kathā.


1.;Whosoever being filled with determination adhimokkha, considers all constructions as impermanent anicca such a one attains the conditionless liberation. 2. Whosoever being filled with tranquillity, considers all constructions as painful dukkha such a one attains the desireless liberation. 3. Whosoever being filled with understanding, considers all constructions as without a self anattā such a one attains the emptiness liberation; Vis.M XXI, 70 = Pts.M. II, p. 58.

1 and 2 are mentioned and explained in M. 43, under the name of deliverances of mind ceto-vimutti. - 2 and 3 appear in Dhs 344ff, 353ff in the section on supra-mundane consciousness see Atthasālini Tr., p. 299ff.

II. The 8 liberations attha vimokkha occur frequently in the texts A. VIII, 66; D. 16, etc. and are described as follows:


There are 8 liberations, o Bhikkhus. Which are these?

1 ''Whilst remaining in the fine-material sphere rūpī one perceives material forms: this is the first liberation.

2;Not perceiving corporcal forms on one's own person, one perceives corporcal forms externally: this is the 2nd liberation.

3 ''By thinking of the beautiful, one is filled with confidence: this is the 3rd liberation.

4;Through the total overcoming of the materiality-perceptions, the vanishing of the reflex-perceptions, and the non-attention to the multiformity-perceptions, with the idea 'Unbounded is space', one reaches the sphere of unbounded space ākāsānañcāyatana and abides therein: this is the 4th liberation.

5;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of unbounded space, and with the idea 'Unbounded is consciousness', one reaches the sphere of unbounded consciousness viññānañcāyatana and abides therein: this is the 5th liberation.

6;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of unbounded consciousness, and with the idea 'Nothing is there', one reaches the sphere of nothingness ākiñeaññāyatana and abides therein: this is the 6th liberation.

7;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of nothingness, one reaches the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception n'eva-saññā -nāsaññāyatana and abides therein: this is the 7th liberation.

8;Through the total overcoming of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, one reaches the ceasing of perception and feeling see: nirodha-samāpatti this is the 8th liberation.

These, o Bhikkhus, are the 8 kinds of liberation


For 1-3, see: abhibhāyatana for 4-7, see: jhāna for 8, see: nir odha-samāpatti.

By 3 is meant the attainment of the fine-material absorptions jhāna by means of concentrating the mind on perfectly pure and bright colours as objects of the kasina. According to Pts.M. this mental state is produced also by concentrating the mind on the 4 sublime states, i.e. all-embracing kindness, Pity, sympathetic joy and equanimity, in consequence of which allbeings appear perfectly pure and glorified, and thus the mind turns to the beautiful.

See Pts.M. II, Vimokkha-kathā; Atthasālini Tr., p. 255; App
chownah
Ok thanks chownah . :anjali:

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