Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:17 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:49 pm
It is not right that a being spends his time delighting in sense pleasure, becoming lustful he becomes infatuated by sense pleasures, pleasurable ideas he likes to entertain, pleasurable sounds he seeks out, pleasurable sight objects does he seek.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:07 pm
Ye it's allure is very strong i have not been able to kick it yet either i think it is most difficult when living in the city.
In my opinion, music is a very trivial thing. If music itself is an obstacle to Dhamma practice then, in my opinion, there must not be a strong motivation for Dhamma practice. Its like saying a feather in a box is an obstacle to lifting the box. In reality, it is the heavy things in the box that are obstacles to lifting the box rather than the feather. Often music is part of a box of sensual pleasures, such as in the phrase "sex-drugs-rock-&-roll". If the wrong sex & drugs are abandoned, music is generally not a big deal or obstacle.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:24 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:17 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:49 pm
It is not right that a being spends his time delighting in sense pleasure, becoming lustful he becomes infatuated by sense pleasures, pleasurable ideas he likes to entertain, pleasurable sounds he seeks out, pleasurable sight objects does he seek.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:07 pm
Ye it's allure is very strong i have not been able to kick it yet either i think it is most difficult when living in the city.
In my opinion, music is a very trivial thing. If music itself is an obstacle to Dhamma practice then, in my opinion, there must not be a strong motivation for Dhamma practice.
Then in your opinion Noble Disciples do not have a strong motivation to practice;
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaka.html
7. "Bhikkhus. Ariyan disciples in this Religion reflect thus:

"'All arahants, for as long as life lasts, have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. Nor do they bedeck themselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume.'

"All of you have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. You do not bedeck yourselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume. For all of this day and night, in this manner, you will be known as having followed the arahants, and the Uposatha will have been observed by you.
better not say such things

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DooDoot
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:38 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:24 am
Then in your opinion Noble Disciples do not have a strong motivation to practice
Not at all. All I said was music itself is not a great obstacle to practise. I did not comment on how an arahant has no desire to listen to music.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:24 am
All of you have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. You do not bedeck yourselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume. For all of this day and night, in this manner, you will be known as having followed the arahants, and the Uposatha will have been observed by you.
The sutta supports what I posted, namely, music is part of a package of sensual pleasures, as follows:
All of you have given up that which is an obstacle to the Brahma-faring and behave like a Brahma. Your behavior is far from sexual intercourse.

All of you have given up the taking of liquors and intoxicants. You abstain from drink which causes carelessness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaka.html
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:24 am
better not say such things
Unlike your confession, my mind is not a slave to music & I have kicked it, therefore, I can speak the truth. In my experience, music alone is not a great obstacle to meditation &, in my opinion, anyone that believes it is is probably hooked on other sensual pleasures.

:meditate:
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:07 pm
Ye it's allure is very strong i have not been able to kick it yet either i think it is most difficult when living in the city.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:44 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:38 am

Not at all. All I said was music itself is not a great obstacle to practise.
lol we all know that is not all you said. what a joke.
DooDoot wrote:In my opinion, music is a very trivial thing. If music itself is an obstacle to Dhamma practice then, in my opinion, there must not be a strong motivation for Dhamma practice. Its like saying a feather in a box is an obstacle to lifting the box. In reality, it is the heavy things in the box that are obstacles to lifting the box rather than the feather. Often music is part of a box of sensual pleasures, such as in the phrase "sex-drugs-rock-&-roll". If the wrong sex & drugs are abandoned, music is generally not a big deal or obstacle.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:48 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:38 am
Unlike your confession, my mind is not a slave to music & I have kicked it, therefore, I can speak the truth. In my experience, music alone is not a great obstacle to meditation &, in my opinion, anyone that believes it is is probably hooked on other sensual pleasures.
Congratulations try kick slandering Arya, would be good for you

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DooDoot
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:49 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:44 am
lol we all know that is not all you said. what a joke.
I think possibility the larger joke is your attempting to bully people with sutta quotes about arahants & hijack the music thread yet your mind is still stuck in the mud of sensuality. Music in itself, dependent upon its nature or quality, is no big deal.
Cunda, it is impossible that one who is himself sunk in the mire should pull out another who is sunk in the mire. But it is possible, Cunda, that one not sunk in the mire himself should pull out another who is sunk in the mire.

MN 8

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:49 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:44 am
lol we all know that is not all you said. what a joke.
I think possibility the larger joke is your attempting to bully people with sutta quotes about arahants & hijack the music thread yet your mind is still stuck in the mud of sensuality. Music in itself, dependent upon its nature or quality, is no big deal.
Cunda, it is impossible that one who is himself sunk in the mire should pull out another who is sunk in the mire. But it is possible, Cunda, that one not sunk in the mire himself should pull out another who is sunk in the mire.

MN 8
I am sorry if you feel bullied. It was not my intention to bully you.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:01 am

Ill just point out the rediculousness in your speech
If music itself is an obstacle to Dhamma practice then, in my opinion, there must not be a strong motivation for Dhamma practice.
That quote mind you given to Ariya Disciple not an Arahant. It is also proclaimed that the music is an obstacle to those people (Ariya Savaka).
"All of you have given up singing and dancing, the playing of musical instruments and the watching of entertainments, which are stumbling blocks to that which is wholesome. You do not bedeck yourselves with ornaments, flowers or perfume. For all of this day and night, in this manner, you will be known as having followed the arahants, and the Uposatha will have been observed by you.
This is in direct contradiction to your uneducated opinion. So as far as this topic and discussion it is game, set, match.

Depends what you mean by strong motivation tho, do you have strong motivation, you who have supposedly weakened the fetter of sensuality, is yours stronger than that of a Sotapanna who listens to music?

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DooDoot
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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:32 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:01 am
This is in direct contradiction to your uneducated opinion. So as far as this topic and discussion it is game, set, match.
Of course it is not game, set & match because the quote you made is out of context & does not negate the truth of what I said.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:01 am
Depends what you mean by strong motivation tho, do you have strong motivation, you who have supposedly weakened the fetter of sensuality
The motivation for peace, even it that peace is merely samatha. The motivation to end suffering. Music is a trifling thing in relation to this. When a person is motivated to end suffering, music is not a significant obstacle.
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:01 am
is yours stronger than that of a Sotapanna who listens to music?
This is in direct contradiction to your uneducated opinion. A Sotapanna is a Noble Disciple (rather than a faith follower that abstains from sex, food, drugs & music one day per month on the Uposatha). Why would a Sotapanna want to listen to music? Just because the suttas say a Sotappana has not uprooted sensual desire does not mean a Sotapanna is devoted to sensual pleasures. The idea that Sotapanna always engage in sexual activity is false.

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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by pegembara » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:41 am

"Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What goes on in the entertainment world does not lead to dispassion but to its opposite. There lots of interesting forms, emotions, narratives, sex and drugs. So instead of gaining release, the worldly bonds get stronger and stronger.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:20 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:17 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:49 pm
It is not right that a being spends his time delighting in sense pleasure, becoming lustful he becomes infatuated by sense pleasures, pleasurable ideas he likes to entertain, pleasurable sounds he seeks out, pleasurable sight objects does he seek.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:07 pm
Ye it's allure is very strong i have not been able to kick it yet either i think it is most difficult when living in the city.
In my opinion, music is a very trivial thing. If music itself is an obstacle to Dhamma practice then, in my opinion, there must not be a strong motivation for Dhamma practice. Its like saying a feather in a box is an obstacle to lifting the box. In reality, it is the heavy things in the box that are obstacles to lifting the box rather than the feather. Often music is part of a box of sensual pleasures, such as in the phrase "sex-drugs-rock-&-roll". If the wrong sex & drugs are abandoned, music is generally not a big deal or obstacle.
just speaking from personal experience i find music highly distracting; maybe it's pop music? but even buddhist songs like the imee ooi i find intolerable and turn off as fast as i can
that was one of the first things i let go of and thinking back on it vs now i'm able to retain a clearer mind with less worry. less passion, more focus
i suspect that this is the true nature of music but that tolerance and even mild enjoyment are conditioned. interesting analysis tho with the 'sex drugs and rock n roll', i bet there is validity to that and dn 31 agrees. still in another sutta or maybe it is the vinaya singing and dancing are compared to wailing and madness,

blessings
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— Ud 5.5

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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:25 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:20 am
even buddhist songs like the imee ooi i find intolerable and turn off as fast as i can
:thumbsup:
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:20 am
interesting analysis tho with the 'sex drugs and rock n roll', i bet there is validity to that and dn 31 agrees.
Thanks
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:20 am
still in another sutta or maybe it is the vinaya singing and dancing are compared to wailing and madness
Even before Buddhism, I thought dancing was madness. But some music is elevated & has good messages. While I rarely listen to music, it has never hindered my mind (ever since i gave up sex & drugs).

:anjali:

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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:48 am

SDC wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:31 pm
The staff currently has no plans to use the suttas to enforce conduct on the forum.
This would be fantastic
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by binocular » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:56 am

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:08 pm
So performers are responsible for the intoxicated & heedless mind states of others?
It would be wrong to say that performers are responsible for the intoxicated & heedless mind states of others; that would be an overstatement.
But performers generally want others to become intoxicated & heedless, because otherwise, they won't pay attention to the performers.

There is, however, the concomitant issue of social cohesion and social norms, which makes the matter more complex. In that sense there aren't just the performer and the audience, but the performer, social norms that everyone feels bound by and aspires to keep (social cohesion), and the audience.

In the Buddhist conception of things, it seems people are conceived of individualistically, as not bound by social norms, but simply acting on their own passions.

I think though that people often do things not necessarily because they would be driven by their own particular passions, but primarily because they're trying to comply with (what they believe are) society's norms.
For example, I used to go to the theater and made an effort to like it, to feel impressed, simply because this is what was expected of people of my social standing then. I find that the way art is talked about in the suttas bears a striking similarity to American individualism, but not to the way art is traditionally conceived of in continental Europe (where being interested in art has little or nothing to do with one's particular passions or dispassions for art per se, but primarily with a general desire to be cultured and to be considered cultured).
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Why does a comedian go to hell or animal womb?

Post by Mr Man » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:51 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:56 am
Mr Man wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:08 pm
So performers are responsible for the intoxicated & heedless mind states of others?
It would be wrong to say that performers are responsible for the intoxicated & heedless mind states of others; that would be an overstatement.
Hi binocular
I guess Dhammarakkhito's posts are being delayed by the moderators but I had originally posted directly after cappuccino's Sutta quote which would seem to say that.
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:53 pm
having made others intoxicated & heedless … is reborn in hell

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