Combatting Guruism

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Saengnapha
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by Saengnapha »

chownah wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 am
Saengnapha wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:16 am
chownah wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:03 am
The dhamma in and of itself does nothing.....it is the individual who earnestly strives to understand and implement the dhamma that generates the kamma which leads to release. Perhaps the most important kind of faith to have is the faith that through ones own efforts that one can make progress towards the goal.......without faith in ones own ability to find the path one might differ judgement to some guru.
chownah
Funny, I see it as the relinquishing of one's efforts that 'progress' could be made.
Yes, you have described the way you see it. It seems to me that you having faith in how you see it is what has enabled you to make those efforts. If you did not have faith in how you see it then you might be tempted to go see a guru who would tell you what to do....thus having faith that ones earnest efforts will benefit one is a way (perhaps the only way) that one has to combat guruism.

One doesn't know how to proceed....one uses discernment to find how to proceed and then one either has faith in what one has discerned....or perhaps one goes to a guru and says "I don't know what to do....please tell me what to do."

chownah
I'm not sure I understand your reply. Firstly, I am not against going to see a guru/teacher. As a young man I did just that, but I had no faith in either myself or the teachers that I met. When I met U.G. (sorry to mention that name), I had unswerving faith in who he was and what he talked about. Theoretically, I understood what had happened to him and his admonition about trying to attain what is not attainable. He gave me nothing to practice and no belief to cling to. Yet here was somebody that embodied all that I had read about and he was telling me all my efforts were for naught. I thought he was kidding at first and continued on my merry way trying to 'progress', to 'understand' why there was still this craving, this becoming. That is when I began to lose faith in myself as the attainer of wisdom, holiness, etc. None of my efforts moved me closer to those goals. The one thing that continuously rang out in my head was U.G. telling me to stop, just stop.

Over the years, I see what happens when I stop. The stopping is the giving up of self interest because self interest cannot beget anything but more self interest. This is where the idea of surrender comes from and why I post Christian mystic poems that were written by people who have discovered what giving themselves up means, who have no faith in self interest and have been transformed through selflessness. Those moments of fullness that I've experienced happen when I am simply present, not wishing for anything, not trying to be anything. Something very special takes place. Thinking of yourself on a path is antithetical to this. It is only conceptual and has nothing to do with what I think.

My conclusion is that people are going to do whatever they think they need to do or want to do until they begin to see that nothing they are doing is going to 'enlighten' them. Stopping or surrendering is not to someone or something. You do it because there is nothing else to do.
All it had sought it must now forget,
And pass on to a new world,
Beyond its powers of perception.
chownah
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by chownah »

Saengnapha wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:43 pm
chownah wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 am
Saengnapha wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:16 am

Funny, I see it as the relinquishing of one's efforts that 'progress' could be made.
Yes, you have described the way you see it. It seems to me that you having faith in how you see it is what has enabled you to make those efforts. If you did not have faith in how you see it then you might be tempted to go see a guru who would tell you what to do....thus having faith that ones earnest efforts will benefit one is a way (perhaps the only way) that one has to combat guruism.

One doesn't know how to proceed....one uses discernment to find how to proceed and then one either has faith in what one has discerned....or perhaps one goes to a guru and says "I don't know what to do....please tell me what to do."

chownah
I'm not sure I understand your reply. Firstly, I am not against going to see a guru/teacher. As a young man I did just that, but I had no faith in either myself or the teachers that I met. When I met U.G. (sorry to mention that name), I had unswerving faith in who he was and what he talked about. Theoretically, I understood what had happened to him and his admonition about trying to attain what is not attainable. He gave me nothing to practice and no belief to cling to. Yet here was somebody that embodied all that I had read about and he was telling me all my efforts were for naught. I thought he was kidding at first and continued on my merry way trying to 'progress', to 'understand' why there was still this craving, this becoming. That is when I began to lose faith in myself as the attainer of wisdom, holiness, etc. None of my efforts moved me closer to those goals. The one thing that continuously rang out in my head was U.G. telling me to stop, just stop.

Over the years, I see what happens when I stop. The stopping is the giving up of self interest because self interest cannot beget anything but more self interest. This is where the idea of surrender comes from and why I post Christian mystic poems that were written by people who have discovered what giving themselves up means, who have no faith in self interest and have been transformed through selflessness. Those moments of fullness that I've experienced happen when I am simply present, not wishing for anything, not trying to be anything. Something very special takes place. Thinking of yourself on a path is antithetical to this. It is only conceptual and has nothing to do with what I think.

My conclusion is that people are going to do whatever they think they need to do or want to do until they begin to see that nothing they are doing is going to 'enlighten' them. Stopping or surrendering is not to someone or something. You do it because there is nothing else to do.
All it had sought it must now forget,
And pass on to a new world,
Beyond its powers of perception.
I think the disconnect we have here is that I am talking about combatting guruism and you are talking about how you have found the ultimate truth about existence.
chownah
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Circle5
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by Circle5 »

Saengnapha wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:43 pm I'm not sure I understand your reply. Firstly, I am not against going to see a guru/teacher. As a young man I did just that, but I had no faith in either myself or the teachers that I met. When I met U.G. (sorry to mention that name), I had unswerving faith in who he was and what he talked about. Theoretically, I understood what had happened to him and his admonition about trying to attain what is not attainable. He gave me nothing to practice and no belief to cling to. Yet here was somebody that embodied all that I had read about and he was telling me all my efforts were for naught. I thought he was kidding at first and continued on my merry way trying to 'progress', to 'understand' why there was still this craving, this becoming. That is when I began to lose faith in myself as the attainer of wisdom, holiness, etc. None of my efforts moved me closer to those goals. The one thing that continuously rang out in my head was U.G. telling me to stop, just stop.

Over the years, I see what happens when I stop. The stopping is the giving up of self interest because self interest cannot beget anything but more self interest. This is where the idea of surrender comes from and why I post Christian mystic poems that were written by people who have discovered what giving themselves up means, who have no faith in self interest and have been transformed through selflessness. Those moments of fullness that I've experienced happen when I am simply present, not wishing for anything, not trying to be anything. Something very special takes place. Thinking of yourself on a path is antithetical to this. It is only conceptual and has nothing to do with what I think.

My conclusion is that people are going to do whatever they think they need to do or want to do until they begin to see that nothing they are doing is going to 'enlighten' them. Stopping or surrendering is not to someone or something. You do it because there is nothing else to do.
All it had sought it must now forget,
And pass on to a new world,
Beyond its powers of perception.
I don't know about other paths, but the Buddhist path is based on desire.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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dylanj
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by dylanj »

Mr Man wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:05 am
dylanj wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:38 pm To those who think we cannot rely on individual interpretation: If we cannot trust our understanding of the suttas, the actual word of the Buddha himself, how can we trust our understanding of a teacher explaining from those suttas, let alone the teacher themself?

This seems to be a self-defeating argument as without a doubt there is chance for a teacher to be wrong - not so with the suttas.
Hi dylanj
But if we do read the sutta and other parts of the canon isn't it the case that the Buddha taught a system which involved relationships? Monastic to their teachers and other monastics. Laity to monastics. Association with the wise, spiritual friends etc.

A teacher can give you a hand when you need a hand and give you a prod when you need a prod.
Yes, my post does not advocate dismissing these relationships but instead the proper & healthy way of approaching them.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by dylanj »

Crazy cloud wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:25 am

It's nothing wrong with the Guru, it is more likely it has something with you to do ...
Why? Are gurus infallible by virtue of taking on the role of a guru? If so, it must be quite easy to succeed in this Dhamma, we just need to start preaching :)
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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mikenz66
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by mikenz66 »

It's not so much that one needs to regard teachers as infallible. However, my experience on various retreats is that it is most productive to suspend judgement, and try out what the teacher is suggesting for the few hours, few days, week, or whatever.

Going to, say, a Goenka retreat, and spending ten days worrying about whether the breath meditation and body-scan techniques that are taught on those retreats are compatible with what the Buddha taught is rather pointless, in my view. Better to either not bother and stay home, or to embrace and explore the techniques. Afterwards, one can decide whether to pursue them.

I mention the Goenka example because I did one Goenka retreat ten years ago. Though I did not continue with the approach, I learnt a lot on the retreat. I do use the body-scan from time to time, particuarly to get my body settled down.

:heart:
Mike
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Circle5
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by Circle5 »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:08 am for the few hours, few days, week, or whatever.
indefinitely :anjali:
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dylanj
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by dylanj »

So to be clear, those here who do not agree with the OP tend to believe the suttas & vinaya are not enough for anyone who studies them to complete the path?
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Saengnapha
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by Saengnapha »

chownah wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:06 am I think the disconnect we have here is that I am talking about combatting guruism and you are talking about how you have found the ultimate truth about existence.
chownah
Do you have any experience of Guruism? Is it even a word?
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dylanj
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by dylanj »

Saengnapha wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:09 am
chownah wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:06 am I think the disconnect we have here is that I am talking about combatting guruism and you are talking about how you have found the ultimate truth about existence.
chownah
Do you have any experience of Guruism? Is it even a word?
ācariyavāda
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bundokji
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by Bundokji »

dylanj wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:15 am So to be clear, those here who do not agree with the OP tend to believe the suttas & vinaya are not enough for anyone who studies them to complete the path?
For those who have not completed the path, their answer (either positive or negative) has to be based on belief or faith.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Saengnapha
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by Saengnapha »

dylanj wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:26 am
Saengnapha wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:09 am
chownah wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:06 am I think the disconnect we have here is that I am talking about combatting guruism and you are talking about how you have found the ultimate truth about existence.
chownah
Do you have any experience of Guruism? Is it even a word?
ācariyavāda
ācariyavāda meaning the teaching of a master. First, you have to find a master. Then, you can give your opinion whether this amounts to 'guruism' or not. Guruism is not really a word with a concise meaning. Are those students of Ajahn Chah practicing Guruism? Your ideas are assuming that it is not possible for another human being to be a real teacher, only the Buddha. So, I ask you if you have ever met a real master? Perhaps there is no real difference between the two, only the way we perceive and construct own version of reality.
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dylanj
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by dylanj »

Saengnapha wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:41 am Your ideas are assuming that it is not possible for another human being to be a real teacher, only the Buddha.
No, they absolutely are not. Please reread the post & my comments. I have already defended myself against this baseless accusation & the fact that it keeps coming up shows that there is a knee-jerk projection by the dissenters here onto what is really being said.
Saengnapha wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:41 am So, I ask you if you have ever met a real master?
Yes, I believe there are arahants alive in the world today & they should be followed with deep reverence & faith. That shouldn't be surprising to you because I never said anything to the contrary. I hope you actually read the OP.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
Bundokji
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by Bundokji »

Saengnapha wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:41 am ācariyavāda meaning the teaching of a master. First, you have to find a master. Then, you can give your opinion whether this amounts to 'guruism' or not. Guruism is not really a word with a concise meaning. Are those students of Ajahn Chah practicing Guruism? Your ideas are assuming that it is not possible for another human being to be a real teacher, only the Buddha. So, I ask you if you have ever met a real master? Perhaps there is no real difference between the two, only the way we perceive and construct own version of reality.
Do you believe in the notion that only a master knows a master? If one is not a master, how does he recognize one?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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dylanj
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Re: Combatting Guruism

Post by dylanj »

In fact it could be said that I am a guruist with a contemporary teacher whose word I take as true nearly unconditionally. But the difference between me & what I am calling "guruists" is that the Buddha is even higher for me, & all my faith in this teacher comes from the faith I have in the Buddha & my conviction that this teacher doesn't make even the slightest bit of deviation from the Buddha-word.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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