I'm not sure I understand your reply. Firstly, I am not against going to see a guru/teacher. As a young man I did just that, but I had no faith in either myself or the teachers that I met. When I met U.G. (sorry to mention that name), I had unswerving faith in who he was and what he talked about. Theoretically, I understood what had happened to him and his admonition about trying to attain what is not attainable. He gave me nothing to practice and no belief to cling to. Yet here was somebody that embodied all that I had read about and he was telling me all my efforts were for naught. I thought he was kidding at first and continued on my merry way trying to 'progress', to 'understand' why there was still this craving, this becoming. That is when I began to lose faith in myself as the attainer of wisdom, holiness, etc. None of my efforts moved me closer to those goals. The one thing that continuously rang out in my head was U.G. telling me to stop, just stop.chownah wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 amYes, you have described the way you see it. It seems to me that you having faith in how you see it is what has enabled you to make those efforts. If you did not have faith in how you see it then you might be tempted to go see a guru who would tell you what to do....thus having faith that ones earnest efforts will benefit one is a way (perhaps the only way) that one has to combat guruism.Saengnapha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:16 amFunny, I see it as the relinquishing of one's efforts that 'progress' could be made.chownah wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:03 am
The dhamma in and of itself does nothing.....it is the individual who earnestly strives to understand and implement the dhamma that generates the kamma which leads to release. Perhaps the most important kind of faith to have is the faith that through ones own efforts that one can make progress towards the goal.......without faith in ones own ability to find the path one might differ judgement to some guru.
chownah
One doesn't know how to proceed....one uses discernment to find how to proceed and then one either has faith in what one has discerned....or perhaps one goes to a guru and says "I don't know what to do....please tell me what to do."
chownah
Over the years, I see what happens when I stop. The stopping is the giving up of self interest because self interest cannot beget anything but more self interest. This is where the idea of surrender comes from and why I post Christian mystic poems that were written by people who have discovered what giving themselves up means, who have no faith in self interest and have been transformed through selflessness. Those moments of fullness that I've experienced happen when I am simply present, not wishing for anything, not trying to be anything. Something very special takes place. Thinking of yourself on a path is antithetical to this. It is only conceptual and has nothing to do with what I think.
My conclusion is that people are going to do whatever they think they need to do or want to do until they begin to see that nothing they are doing is going to 'enlighten' them. Stopping or surrendering is not to someone or something. You do it because there is nothing else to do.
All it had sought it must now forget,
And pass on to a new world,
Beyond its powers of perception.