Anger

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: Anger

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:44 am

Is it good then to teach students to act to molify anger? Is it good to use anger to motivate students? Doesn't this teach students that anger is good.....can a student that accepts anger as good be far from accepting that hate is good?

Isn't anger just temporary hatred?
chownah

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:56 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:39 pm
So I asked him the standard question - what would he do if somebody crashed through the door right now and threatened to kill everyone with a gun. You know, because I wanted to un-man him for the spineless pacifist bs artist that he was.
Your question was based on a problematic intention; it's very easy to humiliate people who ask such basic and penetrating questions (because such questions come from a place of vulnerability, and asking them reveals that the person is vulnerable, and therefore, easy to humiliate, manipulate, overcome).
If one wants to put someone on the spot, one has to be bigger than them, more advanced than them; in which case, one probably wouldn't seek to put them on the spot to begin with.
The first is the look of bemused compassion on his face with hints of sadness and concern.
With your question, you have set yourself up to be patronized (and you were).
So the moral of this story is ... is there some goddam thing with zen monks carrying around large (as in, large) framed pictures of Kwan Yin standing on the dragon, in their backpacks? Sort of like, break seal in case of emergency, sort of thing?
Meh, people are predictable like that, and esp. Mahayanists seem to be very well prepared for it. They know that somebody is probably going to get angry at their lovey-dovey talk, so they have an arsenal of answers and props ready for those occasions.

:tongue:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:04 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:44 am
Is it good then to teach students to act to molify anger? Is it good to use anger to motivate students? Doesn't this teach students that anger is good.....can a student that accepts anger as good be far from accepting that hate is good?

Isn't anger just temporary hatred?
Exactly.
L.N. wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:12 pm
This may be true. In the case of a pupil, the long-term effect may be positive if it reinforces good behavior. See this discussion.
Good behavior that comes at a great cost, as the child thus raised has learned that anger and hatred are not only acceptable, but even good.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:11 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:04 pm
L.N. wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:12 pm
This may be true. In the case of a pupil, the long-term effect may be positive if it reinforces good behavior. See this discussion.
Good behavior that comes at a great cost, as the child thus raised has learned that anger and hatred are not only acceptable, but even good.
It depends on the circumstances. See discussion re hiri and ottappa. Children need to see that anger is a part of our common human experience, and that their conduct might elicit anger in another. Children also need to see that anger can be managed in a responsible way. Children should not be shielded from the consequences of their conduct. Most parents understand this and may display measured anger for the purposes of beneficial discipline. This does not mean they have anger in their heart.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:52 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:11 pm
It depends on the circumstances. See discussion re hiri and ottappa. Children need to see that anger is a part of our common human experience, and that their conduct might elicit anger in another. Children also need to see that anger can be managed in a responsible way. Children should not be shielded from the consequences of their conduct. Most parents understand this and may display measured anger for the purposes of beneficial discipline. This does not mean they have anger in their heart.
And so the round goes round and round ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:32 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:52 pm
And so the round goes round and round ...
Yes, that is why we have the 8-fold path. We do the best we can.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

chownah
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Re: Anger

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:08 am

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:11 pm
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:04 pm
L.N. wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:12 pm
This may be true. In the case of a pupil, the long-term effect may be positive if it reinforces good behavior. See this discussion.
Good behavior that comes at a great cost, as the child thus raised has learned that anger and hatred are not only acceptable, but even good.
It depends on the circumstances. See discussion re hiri and ottappa. Children need to see that anger is a part of our common human experience, and that their conduct might elicit anger in another. Children also need to see that anger can be managed in a responsible way. Children should not be shielded from the consequences of their conduct. Most parents understand this and may display measured anger for the purposes of beneficial discipline. This does not mean they have anger in their heart.
Nice theory about fake anger with none in the heart. I think it is pretty much a bogus theory. "Measured anger".....how about "measured hatred"?....is "measured hatred" acceptable.

Why not replace "measured anger" with simple, non aggressive statements of none pleasure? Children who grow up with loving parents are usually eager to please their parents and statements of displeasure about a childs actions along with an explanation of why it creates displeasure not only can disuade the child from the action but also teach them about it.

Anger is one of the most common indicators of disfunctional family relationship.
chownah
edit: Can discipline through anger really be considered beneficial? Isn't the unintended lesson for the child that anger is an acceptable tool for manipulating people?

Anger is a VERY VERY BIG PROBLEM IN THE WORLD.
chownah

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:16 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:08 am
Anger is a VERY VERY BIG PROBLEM IN THE WORLD.
chownah
I agree. Nevertheless, we have anger in the world, and we need to teach our children to deal with it in a healthy way.

What do you make of the following?
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:39 pm
The Dhammapada mentions how anger can be a chariot.
222. He who checks rising anger as a charioteer checks a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Others only hold the reins.
"Kodhavagga: Anger" (Dhp XVII), translated from the Pali by Acharya Buddharakkhita. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 30 November 2013, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html .
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

chownah
Posts: 7532
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Anger

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:48 am

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:16 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:08 am
Anger is a VERY VERY BIG PROBLEM IN THE WORLD.
chownah
I agree. Nevertheless, we have anger in the world, and we need to teach our children to deal with it in a healthy way.

What do you make of the following?
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:39 pm
The Dhammapada mentions how anger can be a chariot.
222. He who checks rising anger as a charioteer checks a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Others only hold the reins.
"Kodhavagga: Anger" (Dhp XVII), translated from the Pali by Acharya Buddharakkhita. Access to Insight (BCBS Edition), 30 November 2013, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html .
Yes, children need to learn about anger. Making anger acceptable will never give the right lesson. Children copy their parents; parents modeling anger will teach anger. If a child becomes angry one should display displeasure with that anger.....one of the key things is to be calm when doing this. Can one be calm and angry?....I think not.

The charioteer thing is about CHECKING anger.
From the same link:
"One should give up anger"
"Overcome the angry by non-anger"
"yield not to anger"
chownah

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:21 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:48 am
Yes, children need to learn about anger. Making anger acceptable will never give the right lesson. Children copy their parents; parents modeling anger will teach anger. If a child becomes angry one should display displeasure with that anger.....one of the key things is to be calm when doing this. Can one be calm and angry?....I think not.

The charioteer thing is about CHECKING anger.
From the same link:
"One should give up anger"
"Overcome the angry by non-anger"
"yield not to anger"
chownah
Yes, but children become angry. It is necessary sometimes to speak sharply in a manner which may be perceived as angry, but which is not fueled by anger toward the child.

As stated in the Dhammapada, "He who checks rising anger as a charioteer checks a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Others only hold the reins." Anger is rising, and we can check it. We can understand its nature. We can hold the reins, and we can conduct ourselves accordingly. A circumstance which might inspire anger may need to be addressed without an angry heart but nevertheless in a firm manner.

As someone noted earlier:
mal4mac wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:25 am
I get the impression that most Theravadans would say "no" and suggest you just be aware of the anger and let it go, certainly don't express it. Tibetans (if I recall Ricard correctly) may argue that negative emotions have a positive side, and anger's positive side is *energy*. You shouldn't, of course, use that energy in negative way (beat someone up, say) but, still, you have that energy and can give it a positive twist - use the energy to argue long and hard against a person maybe. Of course, that long and hard argument should aim at relieving suffering all round.

So to answer your question: I'm not sure! I'm just sure you should avoid bringing more suffering into the world through your angry thoughts. Anyone have a definitive answer to this one? Anger good or bad? Let it go, or transform it and use its energy?
Holding the reins, we can perform skillful kamma instead of harmful kamma.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

chownah
Posts: 7532
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Anger

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:21 am

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:21 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:48 am
Yes, children need to learn about anger. Making anger acceptable will never give the right lesson. Children copy their parents; parents modeling anger will teach anger. If a child becomes angry one should display displeasure with that anger.....one of the key things is to be calm when doing this. Can one be calm and angry?....I think not.

The charioteer thing is about CHECKING anger.
From the same link:
"One should give up anger"
"Overcome the angry by non-anger"
"yield not to anger"
chownah
Yes, but children become angry. It is necessary sometimes to speak sharply in a manner which may be perceived as angry, but which is not fueled by anger toward the child.

As stated in the Dhammapada, "He who checks rising anger as a charioteer checks a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Others only hold the reins." Anger is rising, and we can check it. We can understand its nature. We can hold the reins, and we can conduct ourselves accordingly. A circumstance which might inspire anger may need to be addressed without an angry heart but nevertheless in a firm manner.

As someone noted earlier:
mal4mac wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:25 am
I get the impression that most Theravadans would say "no" and suggest you just be aware of the anger and let it go, certainly don't express it. Tibetans (if I recall Ricard correctly) may argue that negative emotions have a positive side, and anger's positive side is *energy*. You shouldn't, of course, use that energy in negative way (beat someone up, say) but, still, you have that energy and can give it a positive twist - use the energy to argue long and hard against a person maybe. Of course, that long and hard argument should aim at relieving suffering all round.

So to answer your question: I'm not sure! I'm just sure you should avoid bringing more suffering into the world through your angry thoughts. Anyone have a definitive answer to this one? Anger good or bad? Let it go, or transform it and use its energy?
Holding the reins, we can perform skillful kamma instead of harmful kamma.
I think the appropriate definition of "check" is: "Check definition, to stop or arrest the motion of suddenly or forcibly: He checked the horse at the edge of the cliff."
I think that what this means is to quickly stop anger as it is arising.....it does not mean to let it manifest and then to control it.

The only place anger is held is in the heart.
I repeat:
From the same link:
"One should give up anger"
"Overcome the angry by non-anger"
"yield not to anger"
chownah

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:38 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:21 am
I think that what this means is to quickly stop anger as it is arising.....it does not mean to let it manifest and then to control it.
That is consistent with my understanding. In addition, anger is a common human emotion which everyone understands. People may say words in a sharp manner while not being angry.

The reference to anger being a chariot is, I believe, a reference to working with this mind/body phenomenon. Anger is just a part of it. Whatever arises in this mind/body (including anger), we can recognize it for what it is, and we can perform skillful kamma or unskillful kamma. Holding the reins, one may speak sharply while holding no anger in one's heart. A child may perceive this as anger. Sometimes this can be an effective method of teaching. See discussion on hiri/ottappa.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

binocular
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Re: Anger

Post by binocular » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:51 pm

L.N. wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:11 pm
Children need to see /.../ that their conduct might elicit anger in another.
That would be teaching them that they are responsible for what other people think, feel, and do.

Which then leads to, among other things, the considerable earnings of psychotherapists and self-help gurus.
Most parents understand this and may display measured anger for the purposes of beneficial discipline. This does not mean they have anger in their heart.
That's a way to maintain external harmony at the cost of intrapersonal harmony.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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L.N.
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Re: Anger

Post by L.N. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:26 am

binocular wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:51 pm
That would be teaching them that they are responsible for what other people think, feel, and do.
While each of us alone is responsible for his or her reactions, this does not mean we are incapable of harming others. Children need to learn that their words and actions can have an effect on others. It is part of being human.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

pegembara
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Re: Anger

Post by pegembara » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:47 am

Anger is rooted in fear. There is the fear of being taken advantage of, being bullied, of being humiliated or being viewed as weak. One who has no fear also has no anger. Parents use pretend anger to teach their children how to behave since the power equation is clearly on their side.
For surely he who, being strong,
Forbears the ones who are more weak
— Forever enduring the weak —
That is called the highest patience.

It is indeed a fault for one
Who returns anger for anger.
Not giving anger for anger,
One wins a double victory.

In this way he is healing both:
Himself and the other person.
The people who think "He's a fool,"
Just don't understand the dhamma.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .olen.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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