British singer Amy Winehouse found dead

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

A shame, indeed.

If you think it's too soon, don't click on this hastily concocted tribute song.

phpBB .

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

A shamey I can't get sound!

[adosa]

Greetings,

A shame, indeed.

If you think it's too soon, don't click on this hastily concocted tribute song.

phpBB .

Metta,
Retro.

That's two terribly distasteful posts in one thread. What do you say we just let her R.I.P., struggles and all?

adosa

[manas]

Greetings,

A shame, indeed.

If you think it's too soon, don't click on this hastily concocted tribute song.

[vid]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nJtCD8jdaY[/vid]

Metta,
Retro.

That's two terribly distasteful posts in one thread. What do you say we just let her R.I.P., struggles and all?

adosa

Hi adosa,
my sentiments exactly. I actually find it odd and disturbing that Retro can make that post (and his previous one)...but I think it proves that none of us here are perfect, nor should we expect them to be. (I hope I've not earned your dislike by saying that, Retro, because overall, as a member here, I've found you to be most helpful and compassionate).

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

To put my comments in some perspective, I've never been overly perturbed by death.

When a member of my extended family dies, or is dying, my sympathies usually reside with those who will miss the person and are presently suffering because of that person's departure. That is more important to me than my connection with the departed, or the departed themselves, who is no longer suffering in this lifetime. That may be odd to some, but that's how I respond. If/when I ever have a death in the immediate family, I'll let you know if I respond any differently.

Amy Winehouse isn't family however, she's one of the thousands (possibly millions?) of sentient beings who dies every day. Knowing the scale of suffering that would arise should one harbour grief and distress at the passing of so many beings, I do not do it. Instead, I follow the instruction of the Buddha in suttas such as the Salla Sutta...

Sn 3.8 - Salla Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life.

"The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter.

"In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain.

"By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. Therefore, having listened to the arahant,[1] one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief.

"With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana.

So when a celebrity dies, it generally means no more or less to me than when Mavis three blocks down the road, Ngambie from Namibia, or Michael Jackson dies. People are born every day - people die every day, what could be more fundamentally natural and obvious than that?

Some people might find the video somewhat flippant, but if you pay attention, it pays respects to the family, shows his fondness for Amy Winehouse and her music, and rather than wallowing in pity, manages to bring a few smiles (to me and some others at least) in what might otherwise be a depressing misery-fest.

The idea that such a response to Amy Winehouse's death harms Amy Winehouse herself is illogical. Funerals are for the benefit of the living, not the dead. Even the family members have already had the wake, and are moving on. Amy doesn't need my permission to rest in peace, go onto her next birth, go to bardo, or whatever... what happens happens irrespective of my response. The tribute video (and it is a tribute) is a warts and all tribute - not deceptively glossing over her faults and focusing only on her positives as many eulogies do. To me, that is honest and I value that, and it arguably gives a better more sincere emotional connection to recent events than a glossed and censored eulogy ever could.

I'm sorry if my approach to death and/or the instruction in the Salla Sutta is distasteful to you two... but I'm not going to change it because it offends your sensibilities.

Metta,
Retro.

[bodom]

Some reflections on birth and death by Ajahn Chah:

Birth and Death

1

A good practice is to ask yourself very sincerely, "Why was I born?" Ask yourself this question in the morning, in the afternoon, and at night…every day.

2

Our birth and death are just one thing. You can’t have one without the other. It’s a little funny to see how at a death people are so tearful and sad, and at a birth how happy and delighted. It’s delusion. I think that if you really want to cry, then it would be better to do so when someone’s born. Cry at the root, for if there were no birth, there would be no death. Can you understand this?

3

You’d think that people could appreciate what it would be like to live in a person’s belly. How uncomfortable that would be! Just look at how merely staying in a hut for only one day is already hard to take. You shut all the doors and windows and you’re suffocating already. How would it be to live in a person’s belly for nine months? Yet you want to stick your head right in there, to put your neck in the noose once again.

4

Why are we born? We are born so that we will not have to be born again.

5

When one does not understand death, life can be very confusing.

6

The Buddha told his disciple Ananda to see impermanence, to see death with every breath. We must know death; we must die in order to live. What does that mean? To die is to come to the end of our doubts, all our questions, and just be here with the present reality. You can never die tomorrow; you must die now. Can you do it? If you can do it, you will know the peace of no more questions.

7

Death is as close as our breath.

8

If you’ve trained properly, you wouldn’t feel frightened when you fall sick, nor be upset when someone dies. When you go into the hospital for treatment, determine in your mind that if you get better, that’s fine, and that if you die, that’s fine, too. I guarantee you that if the doctors told me I had cancer and was going to die in a few months, I’d remind the doctors, "Watch out, because death is coming to get you, too. It’s just a question of who goes first and who goes later." Doctors are not going to cure death or prevent death. Only the Buddha was such a doctor, so why not go ahead and use the Buddha’s medicine?

9

If you’re afraid of illness, if you are afraid of death, then you should contemplate where they come from. Where do they come from? They arise from birth. So, don’t be sad when someone dies - it’s just nature, and his suffering in this life is over. If you want to be sad, be sad when people are born: "Oh, no, they’ve come again. They’re going to suffer and die again!"

10

The "One Who Knows" clearly knows that all conditioned phenomena are unsubstantial. So this "One Who Knows" does not become happy or sad, for it does not follow changing conditions. To become glad, is to be born; to become dejected, is to die. Having died, we are born again; having been born, we die again. This birth and death from one moment to the next is the endless spinning wheel of samsara.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... n_Chah.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[manas]

I'm sorry if my approach to death and/or the instruction in the Salla Sutta is distasteful to you two... but I'm not going to change it because it offends your sensibilities.

Metta,
Retro.

Hi Retro,
I won't discount your explanation; there are some valid points there. But, while reading it, I just realized why I had found that vid, and thus your post, a bit distasteful. It's because I'm a father, and I kind of sympathize with Amy Winehouse's father at present, who must be absolutely grief-stricken. From what i hear, there isn't really any pain that can match the loss of a child (excepting abduction or other serious harm coming to the same). So while your point about death and life being quite normal (yeah, they happen every day), still, I wonder how someone who cared in any way, shape or form for Amy Winehouse would feel, if they stumbled across especially your earlier post about her having been 'one of the living dead' for some time already before her death...it's not so much that you are not free to speak your mind, just the timing...anyway I guess we had better hope that her dad doesn't visit Buddhist forums!

[plwk]

Does every dead person's thread have to end up like this?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I wonder how someone who cared in any way, shape or form for Amy Winehouse would feel, if they stumbled across especially your earlier post about her having been 'one of the living dead' for some time already before her death...

Actually, to be honest, if they cared that much, I think they'd have already known. When someone has been dying (or at least been on a downward spiral - either mentally and/or physically) for quite some time, the grief process begins before they die... compared to if it comes completely out of the blue, then it's a complete shock.

To put that in the perspective of our Dhamma Wheel community, it was equally sad when Individual died, as compared to JCSuperstar, but given we'd witnessed much of Individual's mental deterioration (especially the moderators, who see all posts, including those removed for being off-topic or TOS violations) in the preceding months, it was a very different feeling, and a very different set of circumstances to process and deal with. In a way with Individual, you almost felt that he had been freed from a personal torment, whereas for JC, his family life had just begun and the future was bright.

In the case of Amy Winehouse, I doubt she feels she's missing out on too much happiness right now by not being here.... and I also suspect her nearest and dearest, in their clear-minded moments, realise the same.

Metta,
Retro.

[imagemarie]

Does every dead person's thread have to end up like this?

Yes.

The particular and the general


How I view death?
Dependent upon...how I view life.

How I view this person's death?
Dependent upon..how I view this person's life.

How I view other?
Dependent upon..how I view self.



Dependent upon..

[Reductor]

'The heedful do not die, the heedless are as if already dead'

Retro's comment seemed spot on, esp. from a dhammic perspective.

While it is sad that she died, and as a father I cringe at the thought of losing a beloved child, the suffering endured in life by Amy seems the worse. And having the family that I do, it seems very possible that at least one dear one will meet such an untimely death. Does that make it insensitive to talk about it plainly?

Amy winehouses death is not unique, and neither was her suffering; just call a spade a spade, as they say, and be done with it.

[mikenz66]

'The heedful do not die, the heedless are as if already dead'

Retro's comment seemed spot on, esp. from a dhammic perspective.

Sure, and: "Beings are owners of kamma, heir to kamma, born of kamma, related through kamma, and have kamma as their arbitrator...."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, it seems to me that there is a fine line between the equanimity and acceptance of the Dhamma, and indifference, or, worse, a "S/he deserved it, silly fool..." attitude.


Mike

[Ben]

Yes, all beings should be an object of compassion and loving kindess irregardless of whether we like them or not.
kind regards

Ben

[Reductor]

However, it seems to me that there is a fine line between the equanimity and acceptance of the Dhamma, and indifference, or, worse, a "S/he deserved it, silly fool..." attitude.

Has that line been crossed?

I would just point out that statements like "She deserved it" and "she didn't deserve it" both miss the mark by a wide margin, but one might find wide acceptance when it should not.

[mikenz66]

However, it seems to me that there is a fine line between the equanimity and acceptance of the Dhamma, and indifference, or, worse, a "S/he deserved it, silly fool..." attitude.

Has that line been crossed?

I'm not particularly interested in discussing "lines being crossed" in terms of what people post.

I'm more interested in the reactions of my mind to such events...


MIke