Only in America

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tiltbillings
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Only in America

Post by tiltbillings »

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/17/reli ... grace.html
Say a group of Buddhists wanted to build a large temple in your community. How would you feel? Putnam & Co. asked about Buddhists because, they had discovered, Buddhists are one of the least popular religious groups in the country. People like Buddhists less than they do atheists and Mormons—and only slightly more than they do Muslims. Like Muslims, Buddhists “do not have a place in what has come to be called America’s Judeo-Christian framework,” Putnam and his coauthor, David Campbell, write in American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Only in America

Post by ground »

Essential is that buddhists do like all people equally.

Kind regards
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octathlon
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Re: Only in America

Post by octathlon »

Only in America? How about in Islamic countries for example?
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Kim OHara
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Re: Only in America

Post by Kim OHara »

octathlon wrote:Only in America? How about in Islamic countries for example?
That question points, probably by accident, to what I see as a sad paradox of the US: its self-image is that it is a free, enlightened, tolerant, rich, generous, equitable society - even 'the most' rather than 'a' free (etc) society - but its reality, on most of those measures, is closer to poor, extremely conservative, third-world societies.
The recent (ongoing) NY mosque debate illustrates it; the ongoing creationism-in-schools debate was an earlier example; and the wealth distribution, with its consequent chronic crime, illness and alienation, is appalling.
In spite of all this, nearly all of the Americans I know personally - here and in meatspace - are as genuinely nice, decent and well-intentioned as people from any other country. What on earth is going on?
:namaste:
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Ben
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Re: Only in America

Post by Ben »

A question to Tilt and all of our other American friends and those who are residing in America,
tiltbillings wrote:http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/17/reli ... grace.html
Say a group of Buddhists wanted to build a large temple in your community. How would you feel? Putnam & Co. asked about Buddhists because, they had discovered, Buddhists are one of the least popular religious groups in the country. People like Buddhists less than they do atheists and Mormons—and only slightly more than they do Muslims. Like Muslims, Buddhists “do not have a place in what has come to be called America’s Judeo-Christian framework,” Putnam and his coauthor, David Campbell, write in American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us.
Is the above typical of your experience? Is there any prejudice or contempt displayed to you if you let it be known that you are a Buddhist? What's your experience of being a Buddhist in America? I know that sounds like a corny question. Perhaps if I explain...
Living in Australia, most people couldn't care less. Much more interested in what beer you drink, what football team you follow, who you vote for. Certainly as i've gotten older and uglier, if it is raised in conversation, my practice is treated with polite interest/disinterest - depending n the individual. Its been decades since I have perceived any personal prejudice or derision. Anyway, I would be interested in hearing about your experience, living in the States.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Only in America

Post by tiltbillings »

octathlon wrote:Only in America? How about in Islamic countries for example?
"Only in America" is a line from a song that just popped into my head when I was posting this. The United States is a very complicated society with a very interesting history of tolerance and and bigotry, which pretty much all that I meant by the title of the thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Only in America

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:A question to Tilt and all of our other American friends and those who are residing in America,
tiltbillings wrote:http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/17/reli ... grace.html
Say a group of Buddhists wanted to build a large temple in your community. How would you feel? Putnam & Co. asked about Buddhists because, they had discovered, Buddhists are one of the least popular religious groups in the country. People like Buddhists less than they do atheists and Mormons—and only slightly more than they do Muslims. Like Muslims, Buddhists “do not have a place in what has come to be called America’s Judeo-Christian framework,” Putnam and his coauthor, David Campbell, write in American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us.
Is the above typical of your experience? Is there any prejudice or contempt displayed to you if you let it be known that you are a Buddhist? What's your experience of being a Buddhist in America? I know that sounds like a corny question. I
It has not been a major problem, but then I grew up Catholic in an ocean of Lutheran and for the most part it was not a problem, other than the very occasional kid stuff. I am sure the Lutherans looked down upon us as we looked down upon the Lutherans and everyoine looked down upon the Holly Rollers, but being from Minnesota, we were all too polite to be publicly nasty about it and were actually fairly tolerant. As an adult, which would be the length of my Buddhist career. I have had very few run-ins with intolrerance and this has almost always been from evangelical types, which is why I do not care for the Buddhist evangelicals.

Locally, in the liberal Madison, Wisconsin area, there was, some years ago, some resistance in an outlying small town, to the building of Deep Park, which is a Tibetan Center, but the US has, as the article states, a rather complicated religious history and right now we are involved in a rather extended cultures war that has very strong religious underpinnings and the potential for considerable intolerance, especially coming from the religious Right-wing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Phra Chuntawongso
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Re: Only in America

Post by Phra Chuntawongso »

It would be interesting to get Ven.Yuttadhammos take on this as he looks to start up a meditation center in California.
While the Thai population no doubt are happy to have him there,it seems that he has had the occasional brush with the law,due to people reporting his suspicious behavior.It also appears that some"enlightened"beings have forseen his next rebirth in some sort of hell realm. :quote:
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appicchato
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Re: Only in America

Post by appicchato »

I (an American, but who has not lived there for more than thirty years) visited my family in Southern Califonia last year (in robes), and for the most part (other than the gawking at my attire) was ignored...the prevalant acknowledgment being 'Hare Krishna'...the rare 'wai' was warming though...I mention this just in passing...and SoCal is a breed apart...

Was oh so happy to return to Thailand...
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Ben
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Re: Only in America

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote: It has not been a major problem, but then I grew up Catholic in an ocean of Lutheran and for the most part it was not a problem, other than the very occasional kid stuff. I am sure the Lutherans looked down upon us as we looked down upon the Lutherans and everyoine looked down upon the Holly Rollers, but being from Minnesota, we were all too polite to be publicly nasty about it and were actually fairly tolerant.
Yes, I remember as a kid in the late 60s & early 70s, there was still some remnant anti-catholic sentiment where I grew up in western Sydney. Like you I grew up in a Catholic family. However it was nothing compared to the blatant prejudice my father experienced.
tiltbillings wrote: which is why I do not care for the Buddhist evangelicals.
Understandable.
tiltbillings wrote: Locally, in the liberal Madison, Wisconsin area, there was, some years ago, some resistance in an outlying small town, to the building of Deep Park, which is a Tibetan Center, but the US has, as the article states, a rather complicated religious history and right now we are involved in a rather extended cultures war that has very strong religious underpinnings and the potential for considerable intolerance, especially coming from the religious Right-wing.
That wouldn't be the first time there has been some resistence to Tibetan Buddhist projects in non-Buddhist communities. I remember something about some TB project to build a massive statue of matreya in an impoverished indian community that was going ahead without consultation to the local population. Not that I am suggesting the people behind the proposed Deep Park TB Centre are likewise predisposed towards their local community. As far as I am aware, there hasn't been any community resistence to Buddhist centres in Australia, unlike some proposed Islamic schools which have been the target of some of the worst excesses of public irrationality.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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SDC
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Re: Only in America

Post by SDC »

Ben wrote:Is the above typical of your experience? Is there any prejudice or contempt displayed to you if you let it be known that you are a Buddhist? What's your experience of being a Buddhist in America? I know that sounds like a corny question. Perhaps if I explain...
Living in Australia, most people couldn't care less. Much more interested in what beer you drink, what football team you follow, who you vote for. Certainly as i've gotten older and uglier, if it is raised in conversation, my practice is treated with polite interest/disinterest - depending n the individual. Its been decades since I have perceived any personal prejudice or derision. Anyway, I would be interested in hearing about your experience, living in the States.
kind regards

Ben
I live in NYC and I grew up in the surrounding area. I feel like its the least talked about religion not to mention, the least understood. So most are indifferent, in my experience. There's not really any drama to be woven from Buddhism so its not often a hot topic. So the report doesn't surprise me.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: Only in America

Post by SDC »

Kim O'Hara wrote:In spite of all this, nearly all of the Americans I know personally - here and in meatspace - are as genuinely nice, decent and well-intentioned as people from any other country. What on earth is going on?
:namaste:
Kim
It seems to me that only the most shocking and controversial situations get the attention here in the US. Our media and citizens report it, make it known by whatever means, and then it spreads as a "big deal", when in truth most really don't think it is a big deal. Bottom line - if a few people can make something sound very important, then it seems very important, and then everyone else gets lumped in whith those few.

Sorry I strayed a bit off topic.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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tiltbillings
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Re: Only in America

Post by tiltbillings »

A different take:

Measuring Buddhist Influence in America
URL: http://news.spirithit.com/index/society ... n_america/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (http://news.spirithit.com/index/society ... n_america/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Posted: Monday February 14, 2005 7:38 PM EST
By Tricycleblog
New York, USA—The current issue of the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion includes one of the most important pieces on Buddhism in America to appear in recent years. “Buddhists and Buddhism in the United States: The Scope of Influence,” was written by sociologist of American religion Robert Wuthnow and ethnographer of Theravada in the USA Wendy Cadge.

Wuthnow and Cadge’s study is significant for two reasons. First, it takes a different tack in assessing the importance of Buddhism in America than most works have. And secondly, it provides hard data to back up its assertions. This is an article that will be read and cited by scholars of American Buddhism for years to come.

The approach which Wuthnow and Cadge take is to assess the level of influence that Buddhism has exerted on religious Americans, rather than the more conventional numbers game of trying to determine exactly how many Buddhists there are in the country. This is a much more productive approach because Buddhism, unlike Christianity, is not founded on an adherence model: Buddhism can be and often is practiced as part of a wider range of religious commitments.

This means that the number of people who identify overtly as Buddhists doesn’t tell us much about whether Buddhism is impacting American religion generally, particularly because many people who regularly attend Buddhist temples and meditation centers do not consider themselves explicitly Buddhist. Within Buddhist circles, this phenomenon has been noted for some time: approximately 50% of Tricycle’s readership, for instance, doesn’t self-identify as Buddhist.

Historian of American religions Thomas Tweed has coined the term “nightstand Buddhists” for people who might read a Buddhist book before bed or perform some meditation in the morning, but aren’t connected to Buddhism as an institutional religion—such people are usually left out of quantitative studies that attempt to gauge the number of Buddhists out there. So in reframing the question, Wuthnow and Cadge have found a better avenue of investigation that comes closer to capturing the real situation of Buddhism in America.

And what did they find? Even for the specialist in the field of American Buddhism, the numbers Wuthnow and Cadge came up with will prove surprising. Based on their survey conducted in 2002-2003, they found that one out of every seven Americans has had at least a fair level of contact with Buddhism, and that one out of eight Americans reported that Buddhism had influenced their religious life. Those are staggeringly high numbers. To put it in perspective, there are about four million Americans who actively identify as Buddhists. But if we ask how many Americans include Buddhist elements—a little or a lot—in their personal spiritual lives, the number appears to be about 12.5% of the population: that’s 26,125,000 adults. The number who say the Buddhist influence has been significant is almost the same: at 12%, that’s 25,080,000. Clearly Buddhism is exerting an influence far beyond the relatively small number of people who claim Buddhism as their primary religious identity.

There’s another lesson to be learned between the lines. The number of Americans who have had at least a fair amount of contact with Buddhism is 14%, or 29,260,000 adults. The gap between those who have encountered Buddhism, and those who have adopted some Buddhist elements into their lives, is small. Using Wuthnow and Cadge’s figures, we learn that 87.5% of people who have encountered Buddhism believe it has had an effect on them, and 85.7% report a substantial impact. Not surprising, Buddhism scored high with positive assessments, with many more people reporting positive associations with Buddhism than negative ones. In other words, whenever Americans have come into contact with Buddhism—and the study shows that this is a much larger number than might have been guessed—they have overwhelmingly reacted favorably and incorporated elements of it into their religious thinking or practice.

Extrapolating further, a scenario of ever-increasing Buddhist influence within American religious life can be discerned. Even a casual observer will quickly concede that the amount of Buddhist materials available to the public is far higher today than ever before, and growing steadily every year. Buddhist temples continue to be founded across the country, and Buddhist elements in movies, television, books, and online are becoming more common. And since Buddhism appears to exert an influence on virtually everyone who comes in contact with it (and a positive one at that), the widespread penetration of Buddhism into American religion and culture appears to be a coming certainty.



Source:http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/ (http://news.spirithit.com/index?URL=htt ... nnel.tv%2F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
The full study: http://www.wendycadge.com/assets/WuthnowCadge2004.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Only in America

Post by Monkey Mind »

The dominant culture in America was founded almost simultaneously by Pilgrims [religious extremists who were banned from England] and criminals who sent to convict colonies. Both of these cultures blended together, and eradicated any domestic cultures they encountered along the way. A lot of our oddities can be explained by thinking about these two seemingly contradictory histories. Growing up here, every year in school I would learn how the poor pilgrims were unfairly persecuted by the English, and there was never a mention of the crazy-making these people caused when they were in England. Likewise, there is minimal or nil mention of our more colorful convict ancestors: pirates, murderers, rapists, etc.

I have been interacting with a group of Western Thai monks who have started alms rounds in a very rural, and predominately conservative area. So far they have only encountered a couple of negative comments, much curiosity, and their supporters are growing each week. This completely contradicts any assumptions or stereotypes I had before about American culture, or how said culture would receive Buddhists.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Individual »

Don't know about you all, but I'm content with America the way it is and am glad I don't live in a third-world country or face any actual oppression (employment & housing discrimination, violence, etc.). I've never had somebody refuse me something or hurt me in some way because of my religion. If they're ignorant of what I believe or don't like it -- that's OK and it's their right. I'm ignorant of a lot of stuff and don't like a lot of other religions too. When discussing it, people I know are indifferent to Buddhism because they know nothing about it. It is only when I mention I am an Atheist that they are in disbelief, "You're not really an Atheist, are you?" and try to convince me to believe otherwise.

And anyway, Sociology is hardly scientific because it relies on such a high degree of subjective interpretation. Sociologists rely on the epistemological scraps left by the research of other more prestigious fields and then do polls and surveys, and create fancy terminology to feel important; it really can't be taken that seriously. I saw a study a while back which claimed Atheists were the most hated group in America. How the heck do you objectively quantify "how people feel" about Buddhism? You could word the question 10 different ways and end up with 10 different results.
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