Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

If you wish to partake in casual "off-topic" discussion amongst spiritual friends, please do so in the Lounge at Dhamma Wheel Engaged.
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by cooran »

Hello Anna, all,

I also need to say that I have a great deal of respect for the Dalai Lama as a buddhist practitioner, and in the position he holds as the visible face of the Tibetan people.
As a Buddhist practitioner, I have attended three separate week-long Teaching sessions with the Dalai Lama on his various Australian Visits and hope to do this once again when he comes to Brisbane in 2011.

Whilst I respect the fact that others may not agree, I think the interview given by the Dalai Lama was unwise.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by Ben »

Moderator Note:

This is a message to all members:
Please return to topic.
Thanks for your cooperation.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by Ben »

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:As I see it there are a number of problems here. First among them is the fact that once more, one particular Vajrayana monk whose authority is not even accepted by a large number of Vajrayana students is making statements which are then seen as somehow representing Buddhism. He does NOT speak for me on any topic, even when I might share his opinion. And on this I dont.
I think its an interesting social phenomena and not one that I would ascribe to HHDL. I think perhaps the media and the public's ignorance of the fact that HHDL does not speak for all Buddhists (or for that matter, all vajras) is what has created this Buddhist Pope meme.
He has a proven track record of talking garbage on a number of political and social topics. Including his well known anti -gay stance, and would be advised to restrict his banalities to areas where he has knowledge.
I'm not aware of his past anti-gay stand. If he has changed his stand regarding gays then I think its a good thing. But you are right, I would be far more comfortable if he did restrict his comments to areas where he has knowledge or expertise or if he did frame his public comments on social or political issues very carefully.
Having said that, I understand that an article like this surfacing, especially if his comments are taken out of context or misreported. It wouldn't be the first time.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..
User avatar
Journey
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:06 am

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by Journey »

cooran wrote:Hello Anna, all,

I also need to say that I have a great deal of respect for the Dalai Lama as a buddhist practitioner, and in the position he holds as the visible face of the Tibetan people.
As a Buddhist practitioner, I have attended three separate week-long Teaching sessions with the Dalai Lama on his various Australian Visits and hope to do this once again when he comes to Brisbane in 2011.

Whilst I respect the fact that others may not agree, I think the interview given by the Dalai Lama was unwise.

with metta
Chris
( I am against killing of any kind, whaling included.) The press are clearly having a field day with this one. I read the article a few times.

The Dalai Lama said that while he sympathized with their efforts to protect the mammals, protesters’ methods should be nonviolent. "The Dalai Lama said he supported Sea Shepherd's goal of preventing whalers from harming whales but added that "their (activities) should be non-violent". ( Radio NZ )
Is it not the Buddha’s view that violence can only breed more violence and suffering? The Dalai Lama said In his Noble Peace Prize address, that all of our our struggles must remain non-violent and free of hatred because he says we are trying to end the suffering , not to inflict suffering and that this understanding is crucial if we are to take positive and decisive action.
So, The Dalai Lama said that while he sympathized with their efforts to protect the mammals, protesters’ methods should be nonviolent.

** Adding a link to page of Seashepherd supporters which includes a letter of support from the Dalai Lama
http://www.seashepherd.org/support-us/ ... urn false;
Last edited by Journey on Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23185
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

The inevitable problem that the Dalai Lama comes up against time and time again is that he tries to encourage spiritual solutions for worldly problems.

Worldly problems are generally solved by worldly solutions... spirituality is for transcending worldliness.

I suppose that's the contradiction of the bodhisattva.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
plwk
Posts: 1463
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:14 am

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by plwk »

Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters
3 pages of vociferous comments :tongue:
Any difference if it was a regular joe or jane in the street saying the same? :jumping:
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by tiltbillings »

plwk wrote:
Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters
3 pages of vociferous comments :tongue:
Any difference if it was a regular joe or jane in the street saying the same?
Did you actually read this thread? If you had, you would see that this question was already answered.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Rui Sousa
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:01 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by Rui Sousa »

I am with the Dalai Lama on this. I watched a few episodes of Whale Wars on TV and I felt disgusted with the Sea Shepherd crew attitudes. Some of their actions seemed too excessive and dangerous for them and the other boats crews.

The Japanese whalers actions are, off course, aggressive and unnecessary.

I wouldn't support either of them, Japanese whalers or the Sea Shepherd.
With Metta
User avatar
Tex
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:46 pm
Location: Austin, TX, USA

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by Tex »

I agree with HHDL that protests should always be non-violent.

I'm also of the opinion that the actions of the whalers are many factors worse than the actions of this protester. Instead of decrying the protestor's actions and throwing in a brief aside that the whalers are also wrong, it might have been better done the other way around, in my opinion.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by tiltbillings »

Rui Sousa wrote:I am with the Dalai Lama on this. I watched a few episodes of Whale Wars on TV and I felt disgusted with the Sea Shepherd crew attitudes. Some of their actions seemed too excessive and dangerous for them and the other boats crews.

The Japanese whalers actions are, off course, aggressive and unnecessary.
Yes, such killing whales in a very brutal fashion. There is not a thing that the Sea Shepherds are doing that is even remotely close to that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by PeterB »

I think that boarding a vessel without permission stretches the definition of violence somewhat.
Besides which I think that non violence is a council of perfection that sometimes has to be put aside in favour of a deeper truth.
I can think of situations where there would be no choice but to use violence. And in those situations I would not hesitate. I would worry about the metaphysics later.
User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by Annapurna »

tiltbillings wrote:
Annapurna wrote: I'm typing, you see, large letters, so they won't get missed again. But you seem to be angry now.
Why is it that people assign emotions to others based upon words that they see but do not hear? I suspect maybe you are projecting your own anger? But then what would be the point. It is commonly inderstood that using ALL CAPITAL letters signifies yelling.
Annapurna wrote:Nobody is against whale hunting, but HOW is the question.
Annapurna wrote:Suspecting is unnecessary, because the article also stated he said he protested. I'm against whale hunting too.
You just got done stating nobody is against whale hunting.
I wrote:
Annapurna wrote:The Dalai Lama can be critisized and moral outrage can be vented.
The Dalai Lama is above criticism? He never makes a mistake?
Annapurna wrote:
I am more concerned about the amount of critisism from other schools.
Only Gelugpas can criticize the Dalai Lama?
I wrote:
Annapurna wrote:This leads to satisfaction with one-self.
Pushing the old ad hom there, are we?
Annapurna wrote:I am only making a process visible, that may be subconcious, but helpful to realize so it can be dissolved.
If it walks like a duck. . . . It walks like an ad hom. . . . .

Hello, Tilt, I'm back to the discussion after a superbusy day and after posting in too much of a hurry. So if I didn't pay enough attention to my words, I apologize, and from the heart.

I reread my post and your reply, as well as Coorans and my replies to her.

I'm sorry if my replies failed you or Cooran or anybody in any way, because that is certainly not my intention. Writing in a hurry doesn't help me at all.
I suspect maybe you are projecting your own anger?
Perhaps so, I will think about it. I wasn't aware of anger, but who knows.
It is commonly inderstood that using ALL CAPITAL letters signifies yelling.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that. I haven't yelled at anybody irl in many years, it is not really in my character, and with capitalizing letters I sought to draw more attention to them, but I didn't feel like yelling,

Please forgive my ignorance.

I just felt a little protective of the Dalai Lama when he got critisized, because I understood his difficult situation, -not saying you guys didn't as well!

Being a guest in Japan and having to make a statement about their failings is a very ticklish affair, also with all those difficult rules they have for good behaviour.

Hope I'm forgiven if I was too ...um...[insert what you please] 8-)

For the record.

I am totally against whale hunting.

I'm totally against violence in protest actions.

I don't think using water and other dangerous methods in warding off activists are right, because they pose a danger to human beings.

I don't think entering a ship without permission is ok.

I think all non violent methods should be used to keep the Japanese from whale hunting should be used.

I exclude passive resistance and creating obstacles from violence.

I think the Dalai Lama's position and statements are correct.

He is a Buddhist monk and teaches non violence.

He has critisized whale hunting.

His position is clear.

Mine too.

Perhaps, if you still disagree with me (or him), you could make a helpful suggestion, or perhaps we will have to accept different POVs, and simply remain in deep respect for each other as Dhamma friends.


With metta,

Anna
User avatar
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by beeblebrox »

Mukunda wrote:However, if this man did board a vessel without permission, that is act of unbridled aggression . . . it is exactly the same as some one invading your home.
This is a tenuous analogy at best, in this case (I'm not saying that your view wrong). I also disagree with your argument about the cows, pigs, etc. already being slaughtered, so what's the big deal about whale hunting? :rolleye:

Let's take these analogies a step further (or several)...

Suppose there is a house (or a ship, take your pick), and someone locked himself in it. He's using it to harpoon the neighborhood pets for food. The nearest law authority is 100 miles away. We don't want to make an "unbridled aggression". So, what do we do?

Actually, let's make this analogy more in-line with the current whaling situation. Suppose some group of people convinced the law authority that it's okay to harpoon the kids, and that they're okay with a limited quota. (Are they any more special than whales, or cows, pigs, or chickens, which already are being slaughtered? Are the kids extra-special just because they're humans? I think not. :rolleye: The whales have families, too. The pigs deserve as much as the kids to live. Also, it's part of my culture. Here's some bribe money, enjoy yourself.) So, the local law authority can't do anything. (Because some law-maker wanted to enjoy himself with a lifetime subscription to the luxury.) It's up to us, but there's still this problem that some people call "unbridled aggression."

Please note... I don't believe in these analogies, at all. (I'm not that nuts.) :thinking: They're just to show how useful I think these kind of analogies are. (Pretty much useless.) Let's keep this discussion sane, please.
User avatar
Sobeh
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US
Contact:

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by Sobeh »

Time to catch up on the latest news, friends. This is continued as of today's report:

"We are in agreement with the Dalai Lama on this and the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society has never caused an injury to any individual. Reports that we have caused injuries have been fabricated for public relations purposes. We take every precaution to not cause injury, although we do destroy property that is used to take the life of sentient beings and for this we make no apologies. This year the Society has directly saved the lives of 528 whales and over 800 endangered Bluefin tuna. We are in the business of saving lives and not inflicting harm.”

BTW: considering the ship as a home is not a bad analogy, it is maritime law, and as such the aggressiveness of boarding a vessel without permission is determined by (inter-)national maritime jurisprudence. Do research on admiralty law in this connection.
Last edited by Sobeh on Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
OcTavO
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:27 am

Re: Dalai Lama criticises anti-whaling protesters

Post by OcTavO »

I think this is a complex issue that sadly has no simplistic answer. We could all argue about morality vs legality until we're blue in the face but ultimately a balance of both must be maintained to support the civilization we live in. I think the Dalai Lama understand this and thus his comments.
Locked