If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
Mawkish1983
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by Mawkish1983 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:20 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:Christian beliefs ... are still better than having no moral landmarks at all.
Well, demanding that disobedient children are put to death by stoning or that people practicing witchcraft are burned is not what I'd call moral. I think moral landmarks are taught at a young age, and I don't think religion is necessarily necessary. To suggest that Christian beliefs are better than no belief with regards to moral standards appears to me to be some rather poor logic.

Correlation does not equal causation. In the case of Christians, I don't even see a correlation between belief and morals.

I've been cheated on by a Christian. Lied to by a Christian. Threated with a lawsuit by a Christian. I've never been cheated on by a non-Christian. I've never been threatened with a lawsuit by a non-Christian.

I'm not suggesting Christianity is immoral, nor that it influences or causes immoral behaviour... but I also do not believe it is moral, nor that it influences or causes moral behaviour.

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tiltbillings
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:25 pm

Dukkhanirodha wrote:

Christian beliefs have their wrong side, but they are still better than having no moral landmarks at all. This is what I am witnessing here every day.
Who needs to have a religion to be moral?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Mawkish1983
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by Mawkish1983 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Who needs to have a religion to be moral?
That's the point I was trying to make... although poorly :)

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cooran
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by cooran » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:33 pm

Hello all,

This article may be of interest:
Tolerance and Diversity by Bhikkhu Bodhi

Excerpt:
Buddhist tolerance springs from the recognition that the dispositions and spiritual needs of human beings are too vastly diverse to be encompassed by any single teaching, and thus that these needs will naturally find expression in a wide variety of religious forms. The non-Buddhist systems will not be able to lead their adherents to the final goal of the Buddha's Dhamma, but that they never proposed to do in the first place. For Buddhism, acceptance of the idea of the beginningless round of rebirths implies that it would be utterly unrealistic to expect more than a small number of people to be drawn toward a spiritual path aimed at complete liberation. The overwhelming majority, even of those who seek deliverance from earthly woes, will aim at securing a favorable mode of existence within the round, even while misconceiving this to be the ultimate goal of the religious quest.
To the extent that a religion proposes sound ethical principles and can promote to some degree the development of wholesome qualities such as love, generosity, detachment and compassion, it will merit in this respect the approbation of Buddhists. These principles advocated by outside religious systems will also conduce to rebirth in the realms of bliss — the heavens and the divine abodes. Buddhism by no means claims to have unique access to these realms, but holds that the paths that lead to them have been articulated, with varying degrees of clarity, in many of the great spiritual traditions of humanity. While the Buddhist will disagree with the belief structures of other religions to the extent that they deviate from the Buddha's Dhamma, he will respect them to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

Mawkish1983
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by Mawkish1983 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:51 pm

cooran wrote:... the Buddhist ... will respect them [other religious traditions] to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
Harmonious integration? Unfortunately all-too-often this has not been what I've witnessed.

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cooran
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by cooran » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:02 pm

Interesting.

It has been for me ~ I've have friends in the Christian and Muslim communities here in Brisbane, and work with Hindu colleagues - and have been to their weddings etc. and find they are most interested in finding commonalities.

My muslim friends often discuss religion with me, and we usually find ourselves saying "Did the Buddha (or did the Prophet pbuh) say that ?... well, that's the same as the Prophet pbuh (or the Buddha) said in the such and such scripture. ~ And these are communities where there is observance of their religion and dress codes (hijab for women etc.).

Why not reach out with metta on an individual level ... better than widening the gap?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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tiltbillings
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:04 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:
cooran wrote:... the Buddhist ... will respect them [other religious traditions] to the extent that they enjoin virtues and standards of conduct that promote spiritual development and the harmonious integration of human beings with each other and with the world.
Harmonious integration? Unfortunately all-too-often this has not been what I've witnessed.
Yeah. Lots of luck with that. It is an ideal we, as Buddhist, can strive for, and there are Christians and others that may feel the same way, but I suspect they are a small minority.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:13 pm

Goodness, this started with me posting (what zi thought was) a funny story. :jumping:

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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tiltbillings
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:14 pm

Bubbabuddhist wrote:Goodness, this started with me posting (what zi thought was) a funny story.
Funny how that happens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Sekha
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by Sekha » Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:33 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:

Christian beliefs have their wrong side, but they are still better than having no moral landmarks at all. This is what I am witnessing here every day.
Who needs to have a religion to be moral?
Well, some people do. In areas where wisdom is scarce, people who adhere to moral precepts, even if it is out of blind faith, get a significantly better life.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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tiltbillings
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:02 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:

Christian beliefs have their wrong side, but they are still better than having no moral landmarks at all. This is what I am witnessing here every day.
Who needs to have a religion to be moral?
Well, some people do. In areas where wisdom is scarce, people who adhere to moral precepts, even if it is out of blind faith, get a significantly better life.
But you still do not need religion for that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Fede
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by Fede » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:11 am

Bubbabuddhist wrote:Goodness, this started with me posting (what zi thought was) a funny story. :jumping:

J
I'm glad you said that.
And here I was thinking maybe I'd got that wrong....hence my attempt at humorous ripostes....!

Thank you for clarifying and elaborating on local practice and custom regarding the pageant....Interesting.
As an ex-Roman catholic myself, I know some quartrs of my previous religion have relatively odd local custom-built rituals which they address with zeal and fervour.
but I have to say, I'd be pushing it if I admitted I'd ever seen jesus smoking a marloboro' and driving a pickup.
But I'm of a mind that the pickup truck is the equivalent of the donkey.... now that would be some entrance into Jerusalem....

Rev it up Big J... you're not getting good traction on the palm fronds, mate.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Kim OHara
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:16 am

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:

Christian beliefs have their wrong side, but they are still better than having no moral landmarks at all. This is what I am witnessing here every day.
Who needs to have a religion to be moral?
Well, some people do. In areas where wisdom is scarce, people who adhere to moral precepts, even if it is out of blind faith, get a significantly better life.
I agree, Dukkhanirodha.
We (here on DW) might say here that our morality comes from insights we have gained through the dhamma: fine for us, but most people are too busy just surviving to put that much time and mental energy into finding their own path to peace and goodness.
Without that, the choice (IMO) is between unadulterated, short-sighted selfishness (usually dressed up to look a bit prettier) and an off-the-shelf set of guidelines for good behaviour.
Religion provides that off-the-shelf, one-size-fits-all guide, whether the local religion is Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam or anything else. Look at all of them and you'll see the basic social teachings repeated: be nice to others, and respect authority, the law and your parents. They often provide both carrot and stick to encourage good behaviour, plus a sugar coating to make it all more palatable (sorry for all the mixed metaphors!), and most people in most societies have accepted most of the package deal and it works far better than nothing.
I'm not saying it's the only solution or that it has no down-side, just that it works. And if you look at how it works, you will find the same patterns repeating in different cultures and in spite of the doctrinal differences between the religions. In particular, most people go along with what they were taught by their parents (and teach it in turn to their children) and are encouraged in it by their priests but are not passionate about it and not rigorous about it.
Where they get passionate about it we get more of the down-side: extremism, intolerance, etc. Let's not go there.

:namaste:
Kim

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:36 am

Holy crap, if this is the LOUNGE, where do I find the bordello? Bwhahahahahah!

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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Kim OHara
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Re: If You Meet Jesus on The Road...

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:45 am

I'm sorry, Jon, but everything is subject to change, and clinging to notions of permanence leads to suffering. :tongue:
Like, ya just gotta hang loose and go with the flow, man :group:
Even when the flow leads to yet another plodding discussion of virtue.
:toilet:

Kim

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