Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

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binocular
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by binocular » Sat May 26, 2018 4:31 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:18 am
JP made me laugh when he said: "We did not fix the female reproductive cycle until the 1960s". Essentially, he said that Nature or God created the female organism to reproduce offspring is something inherently problematic & broken that needed to be "fixed" or "repaired". Doesn't sound like Judaism or Christianity to me. At 34:10, again, JP says the greatest thing about the 1960s was: "the birth control pill was invented".
That doesn't make me laugh.
Does he also explain how a woman is supposed to be happy about being a man's sex toilet?

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manas
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by manas » Sat May 26, 2018 7:43 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 6:39 am
In fact, the Western God ultimately is sourced in the Biblical Old Testament, which is a book that does not exactly exemplify a turning away from evil (despite its lip-service to moral law).
The problem with Theism:
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 ‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” (1 Samuel 15:2-3).
No wonder the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. praised the IDF for showing 'restraint' in only killing sixty Gaza protesters recently, since they clearly left many others still alive. (sarcasm intended.)
Last edited by manas on Sat May 26, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat May 26, 2018 9:14 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:31 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:18 am
JP made me laugh when he said: "We did not fix the female reproductive cycle until the 1960s". Essentially, he said that Nature or God created the female organism to reproduce offspring is something inherently problematic & broken that needed to be "fixed" or "repaired". Doesn't sound like Judaism or Christianity to me. At 34:10, again, JP says the greatest thing about the 1960s was: "the birth control pill was invented".
That doesn't make me laugh.
Does he also explain how a woman is supposed to be happy about being a man's sex toilet?
He doesn't. He is being egregiously misrepresented in the media.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

ieee23
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by ieee23 » Sat May 26, 2018 9:41 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:14 pm
He doesn't. He is being egregiously misrepresented in the media.
The New York Times recently did a piece about him.

Who is more credible? An institution and a professional journalist whose reputations and livliehoods depend on getting the facts right and who have the time to look into things....OR anonymous fans on the Internet who suffer nothing by being wrong, who likely have not had the time to look at everything he said, and who are likely emotionally invested in his self help stuff?
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19

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DooDoot
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 26, 2018 9:59 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 2:08 pm
even if you disagree, and you'll realise he has his heart in the right place.
I agree with most of what JP said in the video, including his well-intentioned "heart" (although I doubt birth control brings Nirvana). However I simply strongly disagree with his assertions about Judaism, Christianity & Atheism. To me, as I said, JP sounds like an Atheist because there is little Christian & Judaic about his ideas; apart from them mirroring Neo-Liberal-Economic-Protestantism (which is unBiblical). He might do better to study Buddhism in his seeking of a "Transcendent Morality" to justify his personal moral vision of life.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun May 27, 2018 3:44 am

ieee23 wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:41 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:14 pm
He doesn't. He is being egregiously misrepresented in the media.
The New York Times recently did a piece about him.

Who is more credible? An institution and a professional journalist whose reputations and livliehoods depend on getting the facts right and who have the time to look into things....OR anonymous fans on the Internet who suffer nothing by being wrong, who likely have not had the time to look at everything he said, and who are likely emotionally invested in his self help stuff?
There's nothing like seeing it for yourself.

Vice's lies


NBC's lies


Channel 4's trap interview (backfired spectacularly, I might add :smile: )


Salon.com, among others misunderstood the anthropological use of the technical expression "enforced monogamy". It means monogamy through social pressure, not through government action, or infringement on people's individual rights.

This article is so bad it's actually funny.
https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/is-jord ... rt-person/

As for the NYT article itself, here's how it starts

"TORONTO — Jordan Peterson fills huge lecture halls and tells his audiences there’s no shame in looking backward to a model of how the world should be arranged. Look back to the 1950s, he says — and back even further. He tells his audiences that they are smart. He is bringing them knowledge, yes, but it is knowledge that they already know and feel in their bones. He casts this as ancient wisdom, delivered through religious allegories and fairy tales which contain truth, he says, that modern society has forgotten."

It proceeds

"In Mr. Peterson’s world, order is masculine. Chaos is feminine. And if an overdose of femininity is our new poison, Mr. Peterson knows the cure. Hence his new book’s subtitle: “An Antidote to Chaos.”"

Not true. Chaos is symbolized by the feminine, it is not the feminine. Thus his book is not a veiled antidote to femininity. It's an open encouragement to curb destabilization. He said recently that if the side of order was too predominant or rigid, the book would have been an antidote to order. It's not men vs women. It's Rigidity (far right) vs Stability (democracy) vs Instability (far left).

Frankly, I have better things to do than read yet another hit piece against JP at 4:30 in the morning. I'll leave you with evidence he's not far right.







"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

binocular
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by binocular » Sun May 27, 2018 5:41 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:14 pm
binocular wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:31 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:18 am
JP made me laugh when he said: "We did not fix the female reproductive cycle until the 1960s". Essentially, he said that Nature or God created the female organism to reproduce offspring is something inherently problematic & broken that needed to be "fixed" or "repaired". Doesn't sound like Judaism or Christianity to me. At 34:10, again, JP says the greatest thing about the 1960s was: "the birth control pill was invented".
That doesn't make me laugh.
Does he also explain how a woman is supposed to be happy about being a man's sex toilet?
He doesn't. He is being egregiously misrepresented in the media.
?
I ask that type of question anyone who speaks favorably of birth control. It has nothing to do with how someone is portrayed in the media.

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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by Dinsdale » Sun May 27, 2018 9:52 am

That reminds me, I must buy more candles for my Saint Dawkins shrine... :candle: :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun May 27, 2018 12:58 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:41 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 9:14 pm
binocular wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 4:31 pm

That doesn't make me laugh.
Does he also explain how a woman is supposed to be happy about being a man's sex toilet?
He doesn't. He is being egregiously misrepresented in the media.
?
I ask that type of question anyone who speaks favorably of birth control. It has nothing to do with how someone is portrayed in the media.
Sorry. I misunderstood what you were saying.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

binocular
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by binocular » Sun May 27, 2018 7:22 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:58 pm
Sorry. I misunderstood what you were saying.
Just like many people seem to misunderstand Cathy Newman.

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Way~Farer
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by Way~Farer » Sun May 27, 2018 9:15 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:36 am
Petersen says, "The proposition that underlies Western culture is that there is a transcendent morality." He says that this transcendent morality can also be personified as God, or not; but that he's not making an argument for God. It's that the radical atheists (New Atheists like Dawkins and Harris) take this morality for granted, believing that they can take God out of the picture and that what remains is pure rationality -- and he questions how they can think how doing so could possibly work.
I think that is perfectly true. In Buddhist terms, what it amounts to is the assertion that the world (or more specifically, the domain of nama-rupa) does indeed possess "own-being", i.e. it does not arise due to dependent origination, but is self-subsistent. It is what is real, and it is an essentially meaningless matter in motion, of which our own existence is an essentially fortuitous outcome. But the deeper problem is that this form of atheism can't be aware of it's own basis, because the very mind in which these assumptions is embedded is then rationalised out of existence (which is explicit all throughout the "philosophy" of Daniel Dennett, one of the "four horsemen" of the "new atheism".) The net result is that it's like locking a door, putting the key in your pocket, and then forgetting what you've done. "The door", you will say, "is simply locked". As far as you're concerned, that is the end of the matter.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Once sense perception was hailed as the key to knowledge and quantification came to be regarded as the criterion of actuality, the logical next step was to suspend entirely the belief in a supernatural order and all it implied. Hence finally an uncompromising version of mechanistic materialism prevailed, whose axioms became the pillars of the new world view. Matter is now the only ultimate reality, and divine principle of any sort dismissed as sheer imagination.

The triumph of materialism in the sphere of cosmology and metaphysics had the profoundest impact on human self-understanding. The message it conveyed was that the inward dimensions of our existence, with its vast profusion of spiritual and ethical concerns, is mere adventitious superstructure. The inward is reducible to the external, the invisible to the visible, the personal to the impersonal. Mind becomes a higher order function of the brain, the individual a node in a social order governed by statistical laws. All humankind's ideals and values are relegated to the status of illusions: they are projections of biological drives, sublimated wish-fulfillment. Even ethics, the philosophy of moral conduct, comes to be explained away as a flowery way of expressing personal preferences. Its claim to any objective foundation is untenable, and all ethical judgments become equally valid. The ascendancy of relativism is complete.
A Buddhist Response to Contemporary Dilemmas of Human Existence

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun May 27, 2018 9:39 pm

Way~Farer wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 9:15 pm
binocular wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:36 am
Petersen says, "The proposition that underlies Western culture is that there is a transcendent morality." He says that this transcendent morality can also be personified as God, or not; but that he's not making an argument for God. It's that the radical atheists (New Atheists like Dawkins and Harris) take this morality for granted, believing that they can take God out of the picture and that what remains is pure rationality -- and he questions how they can think how doing so could possibly work.
I think that is perfectly true. In Buddhist terms, what it amounts to is the assertion that the world (or more specifically, the domain of nama-rupa) does indeed possess "own-being", i.e. it does not arise due to dependent origination, but is self-subsistent. It is what is real, and it is an essentially meaningless matter in motion, of which our own existence is an essentially fortuitous outcome. But the deeper problem is that this form of atheism can't be aware of it's own basis, because the very mind in which these assumptions is embedded is then rationalised out of existence (which is explicit all throughout the "philosophy" of Daniel Dennett, one of the "four horsemen" of the "new atheism".) The net result is that it's like locking a door, putting the key in your pocket, and then forgetting what you've done. "The door", you will say, "is simply locked". As far as you're concerned, that is the end of the matter.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Once sense perception was hailed as the key to knowledge and quantification came to be regarded as the criterion of actuality, the logical next step was to suspend entirely the belief in a supernatural order and all it implied. Hence finally an uncompromising version of mechanistic materialism prevailed, whose axioms became the pillars of the new world view. Matter is now the only ultimate reality, and divine principle of any sort dismissed as sheer imagination.

The triumph of materialism in the sphere of cosmology and metaphysics had the profoundest impact on human self-understanding. The message it conveyed was that the inward dimensions of our existence, with its vast profusion of spiritual and ethical concerns, is mere adventitious superstructure. The inward is reducible to the external, the invisible to the visible, the personal to the impersonal. Mind becomes a higher order function of the brain, the individual a node in a social order governed by statistical laws. All humankind's ideals and values are relegated to the status of illusions: they are projections of biological drives, sublimated wish-fulfillment. Even ethics, the philosophy of moral conduct, comes to be explained away as a flowery way of expressing personal preferences. Its claim to any objective foundation is untenable, and all ethical judgments become equally valid. The ascendancy of relativism is complete.
A Buddhist Response to Contemporary Dilemmas of Human Existence
Regarding the Bodhi quote: Materialism is not incompatible with 'immaterial phenomena', much as that might sound like a contradiction in terms. The wave is not different from the water, nor the wind from the air. We know that without brain function, there is no mind, but the mind is certainly not only the brain, any more than a hurricane is "only" oxygen, nitrogen, etc.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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LG2V
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Re: Jordan Peterson - The Problem With Atheism

Post by LG2V » Mon May 28, 2018 12:30 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:18 am
at 9:00 Peterson says he believes the fundamental religious truth that: "life is suffering".


Thanks for sharing :smile:
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http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

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