is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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SDC
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by SDC » Mon May 14, 2018 5:47 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 am
Obviously, this is a topic which can provoke strong feelings, but could members - all members - please refrain from ad hominem attacks and nasty speech? The thread will be locked if people can't debate this in a civil manner.
Indeed. Get it together, all.

:focus:

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 15, 2018 5:14 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am
Dependent Origination is the 2nd Noble Truth (AN 3.61) thus this comparison is irrelevant. Also, your comment is also irrelevant.
And according to your "logic" because it came second (after the First Noble Truth) it is not as relevant as the First Noble Truth. That is how ludicrous your "logic" is.
No, no. Let me back-peddle for the sake of clarity. You posted the following:
But, for example, we know the Buddha's teaching on Dependent Origination came after the teaching on the Four Noble Truths, does that make it any less relevant???
I replied:
Dependent Origination is the 2nd Noble Truth (AN 3.61) thus this comparison is irrelevant.
In other words, I posted the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination (including Reverse Order) are the same teaching therefore these Dhammas are not different things. The Four Noble Truths appeared to be a brief introductory version of Dependent Origination. Similarly, the two realms of heaven & hell appear to be a brief summation of the five-realms of human, godly (heavenly), animal ghost & hell. But you appeared to deny the Buddha taught about "heaven & hell", which is similar to denying the Buddha taught about the Four Noble Truths. Similarly, you appeared to deny abortion can cause suffering in women; i.e. you appeared to declare the doctrines of natthikavāda; akiriyavāda and ahetukavāda. :smile:
Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 am
It is not a pissing contest. Discussions are about developing understanding, not winning or losing.
Sorry. But I recall one of the titles of the Buddha is the Victorious One. Dhamma discussions are certainly about victory over "kilesa", which means victory over "lust; depravity; impurity".
Aloka wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm
Here's an article I found by journalist and Zen practitioner Barbara O'Brien :

"Buddhist Perspectives on the Abortion Debate":

https://www.thoughtco.com/buddhist-pers ... ion-449712
Looks interesting but maybe the article should be called: "Barbara O'Brien's Perspectives on the Abortion Debate". :mrgreen:

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 7:28 am

Well I, for one, am convinced by your verbal exudation.
But you appeared to deny the Buddha taught about "heaven & hell"
I said nothing of the sort.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Dinsdale
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dinsdale » Tue May 15, 2018 8:53 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:04 am
someone works in a pharmacy and is wondering if they need to quit because their pharmacy apparently sells birth control. is it the same as an abortion, because in the vinaya i have heard its a parajika to dispense abortion or contraceptives
bhikkhu pesala as i understood him said basically being a grunt worker is blameless, that you have to own a business and supply goods
is that true in your opinion
Working in a pharmacy doesn't look like an obvious example of wrong livelihood:

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.
These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

But is your question really about the ethics of abortion from a Buddhist POV? And what about the "morning-after" pill?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue May 15, 2018 4:28 pm

yeah, i consider birth control a possible poison, and i draw support from the vinaya. some contraception possibly and occasionally fails at prevention but succeeds in terminating a very early stage pregnancy by damaging the womb?

"Bhikkhus, the descent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things.[410] Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba[411] is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... tbb.wp.htm

since there is no conception without a gandhabba i consider conception the beginning of life. regardless of how momentary or how little pain is felt
but i have no power to stop birth control or plan b from being dispensed, i would just get fired most likely and then me and my diabetic mom would suffer even further lol
this discussion could have been 2 or 3 pages long without all the bickering
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Mr Man
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Mr Man » Tue May 15, 2018 5:23 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:28 pm
yeah, i consider birth control a possible poison, and i draw support from the vinaya. some contraception possibly and occasionally fails at prevention but succeeds in terminating a very early stage pregnancy by damaging the womb?

"Bhikkhus, the descent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things.[410] Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba[411] is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... tbb.wp.htm

since there is no conception without a gandhabba i consider conception the beginning of life. regardless of how momentary or how little pain is felt
but i have no power to stop birth control or plan b from being dispensed, i would just get fired most likely and then me and my diabetic mom would suffer even further lol
this discussion could have been 2 or 3 pages long without all the bickering
So are you going to hand in your notice Dhammarakkhito?

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 5:26 pm

This is samsara, there is nothing pure and blameless in samsara.

If it is such a serious issue for you then you should consider becoming a monastic and living off donations, that way you can avoid all the slimier details of making a living in samsara.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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xofz
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by xofz » Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 pm

Any females, especially female Buddhists, want to express their views? Specifically, on whether or not life begins at conception and abortion is always killing. For instance, does the self-referential consciousness that defines what life is at all begin at conception?

Also, are there renowned Buddhist bhikkunis who are unequivocally against abortion?

I just want to make sure I am being told the "overall" Buddhist view on abortion and not the "male only" Buddhist view on abortion.
becoming aware!

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Sam Vara
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 15, 2018 9:06 pm

xofz wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 pm
Any females, especially female Buddhists, want to express their views? Specifically, on whether or not life begins at conception and abortion is always killing. For instance, does the self-referential consciousness that defines what life is at all begin at conception?

Also, are there renowned Buddhist bhikkunis who are unequivocally against abortion?

I just want to make sure I am being told the "overall" Buddhist view on abortion and not the "male only" Buddhist view on abortion.
An intelligent and sane stance. :anjali:

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 9:33 pm

xofz wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:56 pm
Any females, especially female Buddhists, want to express their views? Specifically, on whether or not life begins at conception and abortion is always killing. For instance, does the self-referential consciousness that defines what life is at all begin at conception?

Also, are there renowned Buddhist bhikkunis who are unequivocally against abortion?

I just want to make sure I am being told the "overall" Buddhist view on abortion and not the "male only" Buddhist view on abortion.
The re was an attempt made by Aloka to state her view, but she was personally attacked early in the piece.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 1:50 am

truth isn't a matter of male opinion or female opinion or popular opinion or opinion at all. if you want to interpret what's in the texts or just disagree with the buddha, whatever, but even if all females thought abortion was great and should be free that would not change the truth of the matter. that comment just fans flames of gender politics
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Pseudobabble
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed May 16, 2018 5:55 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:50 am
truth isn't a matter of male opinion or female opinion or popular opinion or opinion at all.
:goodpost:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha


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Sam Vara
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 16, 2018 6:38 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:50 am
truth isn't a matter of male opinion or female opinion or popular opinion or opinion at all. if you want to interpret what's in the texts or just disagree with the buddha, whatever, but even if all females thought abortion was great and should be free that would not change the truth of the matter. that comment just fans flames of gender politics
You're right, but I think that it would be useful to have a variety of opinions on what the truth is, before we rush to judgement and cling to a particular idea or interpretation. Some of us are less confident of our ability to arrive at the truth than others.

As for fanning the flames, we are all individually responsible for whether we let our fires burn hotter as a result of contact with ideas we don't like.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 6:49 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:28 pm
yeah, i consider birth control a possible poison, and i draw support from the vinaya. some contraception possibly and occasionally fails at prevention but succeeds in terminating a very early stage pregnancy by damaging the womb?

"Bhikkhus, the descent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things.[410] Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba[411] is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... tbb.wp.htm

since there is no conception without a gandhabba i consider conception the beginning of life. regardless of how momentary or how little pain is felt
but i have no power to stop birth control or plan b from being dispensed, i would just get fired most likely and then me and my diabetic mom would suffer even further lol
If "vinnana" was "gandhabba" why was the word "gandhabba " used when the word "vinnana" could have been used? Do you know what "gandhabba" actually means; considering how it is never used in other contexts in the suttas to refer to "consciousness"? Does any Buddhist scholar conclusive know what "gandhabba" really means? :shrug:
the Blessed One, leaving the road, went to sit at the root of a certain tree — his legs crossed, his body erect, with mindfulness established to the fore.

Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga. On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a deva?"[2]

"No, brahman, I am not a deva."

"Are you a gandhabba?"

"No..."

"... a yakkha?"

"No..."

"... a human being?"

"No, brahman, I am not a human being."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. …

Ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme … pe …

The Buddha said this:

bhagavā etadavoca:

“Mendicants, I will teach you about the gods of fairykind.

gandhabbakāyike vo, bhikkhave, deve desessāmi.

Listen …

Taṃ suṇātha.

And what are the gods of fairykind?

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, gandhabbakāyikā devā?

There are gods who live in fragrant roots,

Santi, bhikkhave, mūlagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant heartwood,

Santi, bhikkhave, sāragandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant softwood,

Santi, bhikkhave, pheggugandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant bark,

Santi, bhikkhave, tacagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant shoots,

Santi, bhikkhave, papaṭikagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant leaves,

Santi, bhikkhave, pattagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant flowers,

Santi, bhikkhave, pupphagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant fruit,

Santi, bhikkhave, phalagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant sap,

Santi, bhikkhave, rasagandhe adhivatthā devā.

and fragrant scents.

Santi, bhikkhave, gandhagandhe adhivatthā devā.

These are called the gods of fairykind.”

Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, gandhabbakāyikā devā”

https://suttacentral.net/sn31.1/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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