is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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binocular
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by binocular » Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 am

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 am
Put up or shut up should be the guiding principle for men and their relationship to contraception.
Ah, the shoulds.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:37 am
You cannot know if it is a later or earlier teaching as the teachings do not have date stamps on them.
Since the following excerpt describes one of the three knowledges of the Buddha's enlightenment experience is seems obvious that it was the original & thus earlier view about the realms resulting from kamma:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

MN 4
:heart:
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:37 am
But, for example, we know the Buddha's teaching on Dependent Origination came after the teaching on the Four Noble Truths, does that make it any less relevant???
Dependent Origination is the 2nd Noble Truth (AN 3.61) thus this comparison is irrelevant. Also, your comment is also irrelevant. The point of my post was to show the Buddha originally discerned TWO REALMS that accord with SUFFERING & HAPPINESS and to show your assertion (that my posts about "heaven & hell" were derived from Christianity) was wrong. It was shown your aspersion was wrong. That is issue. You were wrong. Your view was unBuddhist. You heretically denied the Buddha most often taught about heaven & hell in respect to the results of kamma.
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:37 am
Like I said earlier: Buddhism is not Christianity. Leave your baggage at home.
But its your baggage because your false allegations of "misogyny" are based on a Christian-like view that women are a weaker sex. You appear unable to accept that women can debate on an equal footing but, instead, must receive a special delicate "politically correct" treatment.

:strawman: :jedi: :thumbsup: Like shooting fish in a barrel.
binocular wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:53 am
Ah, the shoulds.
Ah, the gentleness & kindness in discussion. Ah, the left-wing totalitarianism. :roll:
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 10:11 am

binocular wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:57 am
My gripe is 1. with women who are mostly passive in these matters and who quietly go along with "social norms", even when that costs them their health and even life; and 2. with people, mostly women, who expect women to just quietly go along with "social norms", even when that costs them their health and even life.
Thanks B. However, my impression is Dhammarakkhito simply wanted to have a serious blokey (male) discussion. The thing about men is they can be very single minded, such as when they are criticised for thinking only with their dicks. The same applies to morality. When men have a moral vision, they can be equally single minded. It can become an "absolute". A change of view can happen very quickly.

If you read carefully one of my later replies, I suggested to Dhammarakkhito to distance his own views from the intentions of the women using birth control. No where did I ever write how I personally expect such women to behave. If you think my posts represent a social norm that I expect people in general to follow then this is mistaken. In Buddhism, my understanding is we do not push our views upon the ordinary world.
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 am
Unfortunately not, which is why they should refrain from judging women when they try to take the matter into their own hands.
For me, another irrelevant discursive off-topic comment. If a man or woman end up in prison for murdering a person; this is not "judging". It is simply cause & effect. Similarly, if a woman reaps some emotional suffering ("hell") from having an abortion that is not judging. Regardless, this thread is actually not about women but about how Dhammarakkhito should relate to his own view & job.
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 am
Put up or shut up should be the guiding principle for men and their relationship to contraception.
Maybe. But Dhammarakkhito did not impregnate a woman. Again, your comment seems irrelevant to the topic.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 14, 2018 10:30 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 10:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am
Since the following excerpt describes one of the three knowledges of the Buddha's enlightenment experience is seems obvious that it was the original & thus earlier view about the realms resulting from kamma:
Another irrelevant quote to back to an illogical and pointless opinion.
Your view was unBuddhist. You heretically denied the Buddha most often taught about heaven & hell in respect to the results of kamma.
A failed attempt to shift the goal posts.
But its your baggage because your false allegations of "misogyny" are based on a Christian-like view that women are a weaker sex. You appear unable to accept that women can debate on an equal footing but, instead, must receive a special delicate "politically correct" treatment.
Complete and utter gibberish.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 10:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:11 am
Your comment seems related to your own sexual attitudes towards women, which is "getting laid"; where your condom might accidentally break or leak. If you were having this discussion in a sleazy nightclub then your worldly views might have some relevance to the hungry ghosts that dwell in sleazy night clubs seeking a sexual fix.
So after a slew of logic fallacies you turn to personal attacks. Lovely. Must be proud of your (good) self.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:31 am
Another irrelevant quote to back to an illogical and pointless opinion.
Since my suggestion was basically irrefutable it appears I was victorious in this debate by your refusal to acknowledge what is plainly obvious, namely at enlightenment the Buddha discerned heaven & hell. Obviously, we do not see eye to eye because you appear to have the Christian-Mahayana baggage that heaven is in the clouds & hell is beneath the earth and the other realms are other physical plains. Myself, I only have seen the hell the Buddha taught about, which is the "hell" of unpleasant & unwanted feelings arising at the eye, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind. Abortions can lead to hell. There are many videos on You Tube & elsewhere with women talking about their abortion experiences. In many of these, it appears plainly obvious these ladies experienced some "hell" ("sadness", "regret", "unhappiness", "grief", etc) from abortions. However, with wisdom, they can forgive & return to love. Best wishes. :heart:
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 am
they should refrain from judging...
Sounds like more Christian baggage. ;) :mrgreen: :thanks:
Matthew 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV) Judging Others “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

James 5:9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 14, 2018 11:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 am

.

Last edited by Aloka on Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 am

Obviously, this is a topic which can provoke strong feelings, but could members - all members - please refrain from ad hominem attacks and nasty speech? The thread will be locked if people can't debate this in a civil manner.

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Bundokji
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Bundokji » Mon May 14, 2018 10:53 am

:popcorn:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am
Since my suggestion was basically irrefutable it appears I was victorious in this debate by your refusal to acknowledge what is plainly obvious...
:rofl: You crack me up.

It is not a pissing contest. Discussions are about developing understanding, not winning or losing.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Mon May 14, 2018 11:39 am

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am
Since my suggestion was basically irrefutable it appears I was victorious in this debate by your refusal to acknowledge what is plainly obvious...
:rofl: You crack me up.

It is not a pissing contest. Discussions are about developing understanding, not winning or losing.



:goodpost: :clap:


.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm

Here's an article I found by journalist and Zen practitioner Barbara O'Brien :

"Buddhist Perspectives on the Abortion Debate":

https://www.thoughtco.com/buddhist-pers ... ion-449712


:anjali:

.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 3:48 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am
Ah, the gentleness & kindness in discussion. Ah, the left-wing totalitarianism. :roll:
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ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am
Dependent Origination is the 2nd Noble Truth (AN 3.61) thus this comparison is irrelevant. Also, your comment is also irrelevant.
And according to your "logic" because it came second (after the First Noble Truth) it is not as relevant as the First Noble Truth. That is how ludicrous your "logic" is.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 5:09 pm

And in your egotistical zeal to "win", you even go so far as to denigrate the Buddha's capacity to teach, implying that what he taught later was a corruption of his own original teachings!!! :shock:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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