is birth control the same as getting an abortion

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 6:59 am

gandhabba has different uses like the word nāga
what i've seen is like a fairy and also a being about to be reborn
then i went on to describe the rebirth process
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:59 am
gandhabba has different uses like the word nāga
what i've seen is like a fairy and also a being about to be reborn
then i went on to describe the rebirth process
You talk like you really know! You are creating a fundamentalist view about abortion based in "gandhabba"; a term that many scholars say they don't understand. :roll:
This link has zero relevance. It is just the personal view of a German man that ordained as a monk.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 am
Bhikkhus, the descent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things.[410] Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... tbb.wp.htm
So you seem to believe that the Buddha, who had super normal psychic powers, believed the conception of an embryo happened without "sperm". :roll:
Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the sperm is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the sperm is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the sperm is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.
This thread is about modern birth control yet you seem to be totally ignoring sperm. :shock:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Wed May 16, 2018 7:02 am

.

Here's the beginning of the article by Bhikkhu Analayo mentioned above :" REBIRTH AND THE GANDHABBA"


ABSTRACT

The present article examines the concept of rebirth in early Buddhist canonical discourses preserved in the Pāli Nikāyas and the Chinese Āgamas from a set of related angles, after which it explores the implications of the gandhabba as one of the three conditions for conception to take place.*

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... dhabba.pdf

DooDoot wrote: This link has zero relevance. It is just the personal view of a German man that ordained as a monk
.

As well as being a monk, Bhikkhu Anālayo is a Professor of the Centre for Buddhist Studies at the University of Hamburg, co-founder of the Āgama Research Group, and a core faculty member at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu_Analayo

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Wed May 16, 2018 7:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:06 am

bless your heart you are so rude
you posted in the wrong topic actually
and of course ven anālayo's paper is relevant, even if it's not correct
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:07 am

hey, why don't you actually finish typing your comment before you post it?
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:08 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:06 am
bless your heart you are so rude
you posted in the wrong topic actually
and of course ven anālayo's paper is relevant, even if it's not correct
Its not relevant to your post because it is only Anālayo's opinion which are you quoting as though it is Gospel Truth. You posted the link as thought it represented absolute truth. If you said it was Anālayo's personal ideas then this would be different. I would accept it is Anālayo's opinion but i do not accept it is necessarily something true.

You are concerned with 21st century birth control yet saying conception occurs due to fairies. If conception occurred due to fairies then any scientific physical birth control could not stop this.

In MN 38, the only logical meaning of "gandhabba" must "sperm".
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am

i'm not
i posted it because he is a good monk that does quite a lot of research on what he writes about
someone might like to read it
i not once quoted the paper.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:13 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am
i posted it because he is a good monk
This is only your opinion.
Aloka wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm
Here's an article I found by journalist and Zen practitioner Barbara O'Brien :

"Buddhist Perspectives on the Abortion Debate":

https://www.thoughtco.com/buddhist-pers ... ion-449712
I read this article thoroughly and, in my opinion, it is a classic case of moral nihilism, where the writer appears to justify abortion using anatta.
Aloka wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:31 am
" TRUTH " =
This is not really Dhamma. In Dhamma, when a moral transgression is committed, it is regarded as a moral transgression. While it is also anatta, it must be also viewed as a moral transgression. That is why monks & nuns practise confession to eachother. For example, "I" or these "past aggregates" have been involved in many harmful deeds in the past. These deeds were "harmful deeds" but they were also "anatta" because the "doer" of the deeds was ignorance. Anatta does not change the 1st precept. Barbara O'Brien gave the impression there was lots of avoidance & denial occurring in her mind although the final quote by Robert Aikten Roshi was very good.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:19 am

i consider 'sperm' covered under 'union of mother and father', coitus
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
viewtopic.php?p=471958#p471958

you're trolling me i guess, and i just dont care
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:21 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:19 am
i consider 'sperm' covered under 'union of mother and father', coitus
You appear have just read this somewhere & you are regurgitating it. Since I have read so many posters say the same, obviously they are repeating something for which there is no evidence. The above is illogical. If sperm was covered under the 'union of mother and father' then "women in season" would also be covered. If a man used a condom or did not ejaculate there still can be union of mother & father without sperm. The above idea cannot be true.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:19 am
you're trolling me i guess, and i just dont care
I'm not trolling you. I am trying to help you do your job with a wise mind. Instead of viewing the world as "imperfect" and "sad", you are creating moral ideals that cannot be upheld. You are creating ideas of "Atman" from imaginary "Fairies".
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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:13 am
Aloka wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm
Here's an article I found by journalist and Zen practitioner Barbara O'Brien :

"Buddhist Perspectives on the Abortion Debate":

https://www.thoughtco.com/buddhist-pers ... ion-449712
I read this article thoroughly and, in my opinion, it is a classic case of moral nihilism, where the writer appears to justify abortion using anatta.
Aloka wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:31 am
" TRUTH " =
This is not really Dhamma. In Dhamma, when a moral transgression is committed, it is regarded as a moral transgression. While it is also anatta, it must be also viewed as a moral transgression. That is why monks & nuns practise confession to eachother. For example, "I" or these "past aggregates" have been involved in many harmful deeds in the past. These deeds are "harmful deeds" but they are also "anatta" because the "doer" of the deeds was ignorance. Anatta does not change the 1st precept.
OK. We all have our views and opinions. :shrug:


:hello: Have a nice day.

.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:31 am

Aloka wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 am
OK. We all have our views and opinions. :shrug:
Sure. As I originally posted, the article would have been more aptly called: "Barbara's Ideas of a Worldly Woman Still Trying to Save Face & Give the View that Women Never Do Anything Wrong; including Not Having The Anusaya of Lust".
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:34 am

woman in season is like ovulating
i mean, i'm just reading the sutta as it is translated and i compared translators, it's like you have an absurdly high standard that even you don't meet
if you think rebirth is some metaphor we have a fundamental disagreement

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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:48 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:34 am
woman in season is like ovulating
It is ovulating. And, for conception, there must also be a man ejaculating sperm. :smile: I am not asserting my opinion is necessarily true (because gandhabba is vague) but i certainly insist my opinion is logical. ;)
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:34 am
i mean, i'm just reading the sutta as it is translated and i compared translators
I suggest you recognise I have read all of these translations. Whatever you post, if it is not original, is not anything new to me. I've read it all before. The wise translators do not translate the word "gandhabba".
Aloka wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:02 am
As well as being a monk, Bhikkhu Anālayo is a Professor of the Centre for Buddhist Studies at the University of Hamburg, co-founder of the Āgama Research Group, and a core faculty member at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu_Analayo
Thanks librarian but I have heard of this monk, who abandoned Ajahn Buddhadasa and took refuge in Bhikkhu Bodhi. Since Ajahn Buddhadasa and Bhikkhu Bodhi are vastly different, whatever status these respective monks have has little relevance to what is actually true. For example, Ajahn Buddhadasa said the gandhabba in MN 38 is "sperm". Now Ajahn Buddhadasa had far more scholarly recognition than Bhikkhu_Analayo. The difference is incomparable. Yet this does not necessarily mean either of these monks is correct. I suppose the point I am making is Buddhism teaches to reflect upon the teachings rather than copy & paste links to scholars. :heart:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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