is birth control the same as getting an abortion

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 1:50 am

truth isn't a matter of male opinion or female opinion or popular opinion or opinion at all. if you want to interpret what's in the texts or just disagree with the buddha, whatever, but even if all females thought abortion was great and should be free that would not change the truth of the matter. that comment just fans flames of gender politics
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Pseudobabble
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed May 16, 2018 5:55 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:50 am
truth isn't a matter of male opinion or female opinion or popular opinion or opinion at all.
:goodpost:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha


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Sam Vara
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 16, 2018 6:38 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:50 am
truth isn't a matter of male opinion or female opinion or popular opinion or opinion at all. if you want to interpret what's in the texts or just disagree with the buddha, whatever, but even if all females thought abortion was great and should be free that would not change the truth of the matter. that comment just fans flames of gender politics
You're right, but I think that it would be useful to have a variety of opinions on what the truth is, before we rush to judgement and cling to a particular idea or interpretation. Some of us are less confident of our ability to arrive at the truth than others.

As for fanning the flames, we are all individually responsible for whether we let our fires burn hotter as a result of contact with ideas we don't like.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 6:49 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:28 pm
yeah, i consider birth control a possible poison, and i draw support from the vinaya. some contraception possibly and occasionally fails at prevention but succeeds in terminating a very early stage pregnancy by damaging the womb?

"Bhikkhus, the descent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things.[410] Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba[411] is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... tbb.wp.htm

since there is no conception without a gandhabba i consider conception the beginning of life. regardless of how momentary or how little pain is felt
but i have no power to stop birth control or plan b from being dispensed, i would just get fired most likely and then me and my diabetic mom would suffer even further lol
If "vinnana" was "gandhabba" why was the word "gandhabba " used when the word "vinnana" could have been used? Do you know what "gandhabba" actually means; considering how it is never used in other contexts in the suttas to refer to "consciousness"? Does any Buddhist scholar conclusive know what "gandhabba" really means? :shrug:
the Blessed One, leaving the road, went to sit at the root of a certain tree — his legs crossed, his body erect, with mindfulness established to the fore.

Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga. On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a deva?"[2]

"No, brahman, I am not a deva."

"Are you a gandhabba?"

"No..."

"... a yakkha?"

"No..."

"... a human being?"

"No, brahman, I am not a human being."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. …

Ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme … pe …

The Buddha said this:

bhagavā etadavoca:

“Mendicants, I will teach you about the gods of fairykind.

gandhabbakāyike vo, bhikkhave, deve desessāmi.

Listen …

Taṃ suṇātha.

And what are the gods of fairykind?

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, gandhabbakāyikā devā?

There are gods who live in fragrant roots,

Santi, bhikkhave, mūlagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant heartwood,

Santi, bhikkhave, sāragandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant softwood,

Santi, bhikkhave, pheggugandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant bark,

Santi, bhikkhave, tacagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant shoots,

Santi, bhikkhave, papaṭikagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant leaves,

Santi, bhikkhave, pattagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant flowers,

Santi, bhikkhave, pupphagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant fruit,

Santi, bhikkhave, phalagandhe adhivatthā devā.

fragrant sap,

Santi, bhikkhave, rasagandhe adhivatthā devā.

and fragrant scents.

Santi, bhikkhave, gandhagandhe adhivatthā devā.

These are called the gods of fairykind.”

Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, gandhabbakāyikā devā”

https://suttacentral.net/sn31.1/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 6:59 am

gandhabba has different uses like the word nāga
what i've seen is like a fairy and also a being about to be reborn
then i went on to describe the rebirth process
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:59 am
gandhabba has different uses like the word nāga
what i've seen is like a fairy and also a being about to be reborn
then i went on to describe the rebirth process
You talk like you really know! You are creating a fundamentalist view about abortion based in "gandhabba"; a term that many scholars say they don't understand. :roll:
This link has zero relevance. It is just the personal view of a German man that ordained as a monk.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:01 am
Bhikkhus, the descent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things.[410] Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.

http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... tbb.wp.htm
So you seem to believe that the Buddha, who had super normal psychic powers, believed the conception of an embryo happened without "sperm". :roll:
Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the sperm is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the sperm is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the sperm is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.
This thread is about modern birth control yet you seem to be totally ignoring sperm. :shock:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:07 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Wed May 16, 2018 7:02 am

.

Here's the beginning of the article by Bhikkhu Analayo mentioned above :" REBIRTH AND THE GANDHABBA"


ABSTRACT

The present article examines the concept of rebirth in early Buddhist canonical discourses preserved in the Pāli Nikāyas and the Chinese Āgamas from a set of related angles, after which it explores the implications of the gandhabba as one of the three conditions for conception to take place.*

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... dhabba.pdf

DooDoot wrote: This link has zero relevance. It is just the personal view of a German man that ordained as a monk
.

As well as being a monk, Bhikkhu Anālayo is a Professor of the Centre for Buddhist Studies at the University of Hamburg, co-founder of the Āgama Research Group, and a core faculty member at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu_Analayo

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Wed May 16, 2018 7:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:06 am

bless your heart you are so rude
you posted in the wrong topic actually
and of course ven anālayo's paper is relevant, even if it's not correct
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:07 am

hey, why don't you actually finish typing your comment before you post it?
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:08 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:06 am
bless your heart you are so rude
you posted in the wrong topic actually
and of course ven anālayo's paper is relevant, even if it's not correct
Its not relevant to your post because it is only Anālayo's opinion which are you quoting as though it is Gospel Truth. You posted the link as thought it represented absolute truth. If you said it was Anālayo's personal ideas then this would be different. I would accept it is Anālayo's opinion but i do not accept it is necessarily something true.

You are concerned with 21st century birth control yet saying conception occurs due to fairies. If conception occurred due to fairies then any scientific physical birth control could not stop this.

In MN 38, the only logical meaning of "gandhabba" must "sperm".
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am

i'm not
i posted it because he is a good monk that does quite a lot of research on what he writes about
someone might like to read it
i not once quoted the paper.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 16, 2018 7:13 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am
i posted it because he is a good monk
This is only your opinion.
Aloka wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm
Here's an article I found by journalist and Zen practitioner Barbara O'Brien :

"Buddhist Perspectives on the Abortion Debate":

https://www.thoughtco.com/buddhist-pers ... ion-449712
I read this article thoroughly and, in my opinion, it is a classic case of moral nihilism, where the writer appears to justify abortion using anatta.
Aloka wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:31 am
" TRUTH " =
This is not really Dhamma. In Dhamma, when a moral transgression is committed, it is regarded as a moral transgression. While it is also anatta, it must be also viewed as a moral transgression. That is why monks & nuns practise confession to eachother. For example, "I" or these "past aggregates" have been involved in many harmful deeds in the past. These deeds were "harmful deeds" but they were also "anatta" because the "doer" of the deeds was ignorance. Anatta does not change the 1st precept. Barbara O'Brien gave the impression there was lots of avoidance & denial occurring in her mind although the final quote by Robert Aikten Roshi was very good.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed May 16, 2018 7:29 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed May 16, 2018 7:19 am

i consider 'sperm' covered under 'union of mother and father', coitus
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
viewtopic.php?p=471958#p471958

you're trolling me i guess, and i just dont care
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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