is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:31 am
Another irrelevant quote to back to an illogical and pointless opinion.
Since my suggestion was basically irrefutable it appears I was victorious in this debate by your refusal to acknowledge what is plainly obvious, namely at enlightenment the Buddha discerned heaven & hell. Obviously, we do not see eye to eye because you appear to have the Christian-Mahayana baggage that heaven is in the clouds & hell is beneath the earth and the other realms are other physical plains. Myself, I only have seen the hell the Buddha taught about, which is the "hell" of unpleasant & unwanted feelings arising at the eye, ears, nose, tongue, body & mind. Abortions can lead to hell. There are many videos on You Tube & elsewhere with women talking about their abortion experiences. In many of these, it appears plainly obvious these ladies experienced some "hell" ("sadness", "regret", "unhappiness", "grief", etc) from abortions. However, with wisdom, they can forgive & return to love. Best wishes. :heart:
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 am
they should refrain from judging...
Sounds like more Christian baggage. ;) :mrgreen: :thanks:
Matthew 7:1-6 New International Version (NIV) Judging Others “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

James 5:9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 14, 2018 11:26 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 am

.

Last edited by Aloka on Mon May 14, 2018 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Sam Vara » Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 am

Obviously, this is a topic which can provoke strong feelings, but could members - all members - please refrain from ad hominem attacks and nasty speech? The thread will be locked if people can't debate this in a civil manner.

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Bundokji
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Bundokji » Mon May 14, 2018 10:53 am

:popcorn:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am
Since my suggestion was basically irrefutable it appears I was victorious in this debate by your refusal to acknowledge what is plainly obvious...
:rofl: You crack me up.

It is not a pissing contest. Discussions are about developing understanding, not winning or losing.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Mon May 14, 2018 11:39 am

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:41 am
Since my suggestion was basically irrefutable it appears I was victorious in this debate by your refusal to acknowledge what is plainly obvious...
:rofl: You crack me up.

It is not a pissing contest. Discussions are about developing understanding, not winning or losing.



:goodpost: :clap:


.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm

Here's an article I found by journalist and Zen practitioner Barbara O'Brien :

"Buddhist Perspectives on the Abortion Debate":

https://www.thoughtco.com/buddhist-pers ... ion-449712


:anjali:

.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 3:48 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am
Ah, the gentleness & kindness in discussion. Ah, the left-wing totalitarianism. :roll:
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ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am
Dependent Origination is the 2nd Noble Truth (AN 3.61) thus this comparison is irrelevant. Also, your comment is also irrelevant.
And according to your "logic" because it came second (after the First Noble Truth) it is not as relevant as the First Noble Truth. That is how ludicrous your "logic" is.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 5:09 pm

And in your egotistical zeal to "win", you even go so far as to denigrate the Buddha's capacity to teach, implying that what he taught later was a corruption of his own original teachings!!! :shock:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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SDC
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by SDC » Mon May 14, 2018 5:47 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:49 am
Obviously, this is a topic which can provoke strong feelings, but could members - all members - please refrain from ad hominem attacks and nasty speech? The thread will be locked if people can't debate this in a civil manner.
Indeed. Get it together, all.

:focus:

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 15, 2018 5:14 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 am
Dependent Origination is the 2nd Noble Truth (AN 3.61) thus this comparison is irrelevant. Also, your comment is also irrelevant.
And according to your "logic" because it came second (after the First Noble Truth) it is not as relevant as the First Noble Truth. That is how ludicrous your "logic" is.
No, no. Let me back-peddle for the sake of clarity. You posted the following:
But, for example, we know the Buddha's teaching on Dependent Origination came after the teaching on the Four Noble Truths, does that make it any less relevant???
I replied:
Dependent Origination is the 2nd Noble Truth (AN 3.61) thus this comparison is irrelevant.
In other words, I posted the Four Noble Truths and Dependent Origination (including Reverse Order) are the same teaching therefore these Dhammas are not different things. The Four Noble Truths appeared to be a brief introductory version of Dependent Origination. Similarly, the two realms of heaven & hell appear to be a brief summation of the five-realms of human, godly (heavenly), animal ghost & hell. But you appeared to deny the Buddha taught about "heaven & hell", which is similar to denying the Buddha taught about the Four Noble Truths. Similarly, you appeared to deny abortion can cause suffering in women; i.e. you appeared to declare the doctrines of natthikavāda; akiriyavāda and ahetukavāda. :smile:
Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 am
It is not a pissing contest. Discussions are about developing understanding, not winning or losing.
Sorry. But I recall one of the titles of the Buddha is the Victorious One. Dhamma discussions are certainly about victory over "kilesa", which means victory over "lust; depravity; impurity".
Aloka wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 12:00 pm
Here's an article I found by journalist and Zen practitioner Barbara O'Brien :

"Buddhist Perspectives on the Abortion Debate":

https://www.thoughtco.com/buddhist-pers ... ion-449712
Looks interesting but maybe the article should be called: "Barbara O'Brien's Perspectives on the Abortion Debate". :mrgreen:

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 7:28 am

Well I, for one, am convinced by your verbal exudation.
But you appeared to deny the Buddha taught about "heaven & hell"
I said nothing of the sort.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Dinsdale
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dinsdale » Tue May 15, 2018 8:53 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:04 am
someone works in a pharmacy and is wondering if they need to quit because their pharmacy apparently sells birth control. is it the same as an abortion, because in the vinaya i have heard its a parajika to dispense abortion or contraceptives
bhikkhu pesala as i understood him said basically being a grunt worker is blameless, that you have to own a business and supply goods
is that true in your opinion
Working in a pharmacy doesn't look like an obvious example of wrong livelihood:

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.
These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

But is your question really about the ethics of abortion from a Buddhist POV? And what about the "morning-after" pill?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue May 15, 2018 4:28 pm

yeah, i consider birth control a possible poison, and i draw support from the vinaya. some contraception possibly and occasionally fails at prevention but succeeds in terminating a very early stage pregnancy by damaging the womb?

"Bhikkhus, the descent of the embryo takes place through the union of three things.[410] Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba[411] is not present - in this case no descent of an embryo takes place. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, but the gandhabba is not present - in this case too no descent of the embryo takes place. But when there is the union of the mother and father, and the mother is in season, and the gandhabba is present, through the union of these three things the descent of the embryo takes place.
http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/wp/ ... tbb.wp.htm

since there is no conception without a gandhabba i consider conception the beginning of life. regardless of how momentary or how little pain is felt
but i have no power to stop birth control or plan b from being dispensed, i would just get fired most likely and then me and my diabetic mom would suffer even further lol
this discussion could have been 2 or 3 pages long without all the bickering
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