is birth control the same as getting an abortion

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Dhammarakkhito
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is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat May 12, 2018 4:04 am

someone works in a pharmacy and is wondering if they need to quit because their pharmacy apparently sells birth control. is it the same as an abortion, because in the vinaya i have heard its a parajika to dispense abortion or contraceptives
bhikkhu pesala as i understood him said basically being a grunt worker is blameless, that you have to own a business and supply goods
is that true in your opinion
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat May 12, 2018 4:20 am

"When a woman ovulates, she can become pregnant. However, the Pill has mechanisms that can cause an abortion before a woman knows that she has conceived. If a sperm does fertilize the egg, the newly conceived baby (zygote) may be transported more slowly through the fallopian tubes because of how they have been altered by the Pill. Thus, the child may not reach the uterus, where he or she needs to implant and receive nourishment for the next nine months. Because the fallopian tubes are changed, the baby may accidentally implant there, causing an ectopic or “tubal” pregnancy, which is fatal to the baby, and can also be life-threatening for the mother.

If the baby is able to travel safely to the uterus, he or she may not be well received. One reason for this is that the chemicals in the Pill thin out the lining of the woman’s uterus (the endometrium).[3] As a result, the baby may not be able to implant. At other times the child will attach to the wall, but he or she will be unable to survive because the normally thick and healthy uterine wall has shriveled and is therefore unable to nourish the baby. The Pill also impacts the woman’s progesterone level. This causes the lining of the uterus to break down and eventually shed as it would in a menstrual cycle, further denying the baby’s attempt to implant."
https://chastityproject.com/qa/do-birth ... abortions/
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
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LG2V
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by LG2V » Sat May 12, 2018 5:25 am

Do you mean regular birth control or Plan B? IMO, the former wouldn't be infanticide, but the latter would .
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat May 12, 2018 5:26 am

the first one, some kind of a gel maybe
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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binocular
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by binocular » Sat May 12, 2018 7:33 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:04 am
someone works in a pharmacy and is wondering if they need to quit because their pharmacy apparently sells birth control.
The pharmacy probably also sells emergency contraceptives, using which can be abortions.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Sat May 12, 2018 9:47 am

'
This might be helpful: "All About Birth Control Methods" from a "planned parenthood" website.

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control


:anjali:

.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 12, 2018 10:03 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:04 am
...in the vinaya i have heard its a parajika to dispense abortion or contraceptives...
If your friend is not a monk/nun why would they care if they committed a parajika offence???

Contraceptive birth control is not the same as an abortion. How can wearing a condom be the same as abortion?

And why draw the line at contraceptives? Pharmacies sell all sorts of poisons. Selling poisons is wrong livelihood. Pharmacies sell all sorts of intoxicants. Selling intoxicants is wrong livelihood.

You would have the same problem working in a supermarket.

Shall I continue, or do you get the point?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 12, 2018 10:07 am

:tantrum: @6:20



:shock: :roll:

Last edited by DooDoot on Sat May 12, 2018 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 12, 2018 10:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:07 am
:tantrum:

Why would I, a Buddhist, care about the Christian view of contraception?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 12, 2018 10:14 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:12 am
Why would I, a Buddhist, care about the Christian view of contraception?
My impression is this topic is not about "contraception" but about "killing". The video I posted has mostly what I assume are non-Christian or at least scientific people speaking in it; such as the lady in the still image. Why would you, a Buddhist, pass judgment upon a video without even listening to it? Also, the Chistian views in the video are very similar to Buddhist views. Why would you, a Buddhist, not know that? The video is saying, from a scientific basis; that the pill can abort fetuses. :roll:

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 12, 2018 10:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:14 am
The video mostly has non-Christian people speaking in it. Why would you, a Buddhist, pass judgment upon a video without even listening to it? Also, the Chistian views in the video are very similar to Buddhist views. Why would you, a Buddhist, not know that? The Buddhist suttas say this is ignoble speech. :roll:
Deception is also ignoble speech. Quite clearly the "Pastor" has an agenda and is using "experts" to push forward their agenda.

Christian views are not similar to Buddhist views. Christian views do not accord with the Dhamma Seals and are not based on the tilakkhaṇa (three marks of existence). If one does not start with samma ditthi (Right View) then one just wanders further into delusion and wrong action and perpetuates samsara.

Now you may be a Christian, your avatar seems to allude to this, so maybe the Christian view is your "thing", but the Christian view is not a Buddhist view.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat May 12, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 12, 2018 10:28 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:14 am
grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:12 am
Why would I, a Buddhist, care about the Christian view of contraception?
My impression is this topic is not about "contraception" but about "killing". The video I posted has mostly what I assume are non-Christian or at least scientific people speaking in it; such as the lady in the still image. Why would you, a Buddhist, pass judgment upon a video without even listening to it? Also, the Chistian views in the video are very similar to Buddhist views. Why would you, a Buddhist, not know that? The video is saying, from a scientific basis; that the pill can abort fetuses. :roll:
1. The "morning after pill" is not a form of contraception. Contraception is about preventing pregnancy. Once one is pregnant then we are no longer talking about contraception. 2. A fetus is an embryo that has reached at least eight weeks of age. If one takes a "morning after pill" immediately after sex, then they are not aborting a fetus. 3. Yes, contraceptive pills can abort an embryo or a fetus, but that is not what they are designed to do. Huge doses of Vitamin C can also abort an embryo, but that is not what Vitamin C is for either.

So: contraceptive birth control is not the same as abortion. Termination of pregnancy is not contraceptive birth control.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 12, 2018 10:29 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:22 am
Deception is also ignoble speech. Quite clearly the "Pastor" has an agenda and is using "experts" to push forward their agenda.
Exactly what would the pastor's agenda be? Since you make an allegation, provide the exact evidence.
grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:22 am
Christian views are not similar to Buddhist views.
The views I heard in the video are very similar to this core Buddhist view found in the Vinaya:
Object: a human being, which according to the Vibhanga includes human
fetuses as well, counting from the time consciousness first arises in the
womb immediately after conception
up to the time of death.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... o/bmc1.pdf
:candle:
grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:22 am
Christian views do not accord with the Dhamma Seals and are not based on the tilakkhaṇa (three marks of existence). If one does not start with samma ditthi (Right View) then one just wanders further into delusion and wrong action and perpetuates samsara.
This thread is about morality and not about the three marks of conditioned phenomena (not Mahayana "existence"). The Buddhist path is the Noble Eightfold Path made up of Three Trainings, which include higher morality.
grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:28 am
Yes, contraceptive pills can abort an embryo or a fetus, but that is not what they are designed to do. Huge doses of Vitamin C can also abort an embryo, but that is not what Vitamin C is for either.
Sounds like you admitted you were wrong & it is not the Pastor engaged in "deception". :| If a Buddhist bhikkhu advises a woman to take Vitamin C to abort an embryo or fetus, that bhikkhu is immediately defeated & no longer a Buddhist monk. Why would I, a Buddhist, care about the Christian-like views you appear to be posting about how monks or priests should behave?
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat May 12, 2018 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 12, 2018 10:35 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:29 am
Object: a human being, which according to the Vibhanga includes human
fetuses as well, counting from the time consciousness first arises in the
womb immediately after conception
up to the time of death.
This is referring to an embryo, not a fetus.

And again: do not confuse contraception with termination of pregnancy.
This thread is about morality and not about the three marks of conditioned phenomena (not Mahayana "existence"). The Buddhist path is the Noble Eightfold Path made up of Three Trainings, which include higher morality.
You cannot separate morality from view. The first spoke of the Noble Eightfold Path is Right View. Any attempt to separate morality from view will lead to the sort of confusion you are currently displaying.
Sounds like you admitted you were wrong & it is not the Pastor engaged in "deception". :|
You wish.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 12, 2018 10:41 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:35 am
This is referring to an embryo, not a fetus.
So?
grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:35 am
And again: do not confuse contraception with termination of pregnancy.
No one on this thread is confusing anything. The thread is just saying birth control pills can cause abortion. But your views are like saying: "My intention to use a car is to travel rather than pollute the enviroment therefore its OK to drive a car" or "my intention to have sex with a child is for pleasure therefore the harm my pedophilia causes to the child is irrelevant". :roll:
grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:35 am
You cannot separate morality from view. The first spoke of the Noble Eightfold Path is Right View. Any attempt to separate morality from view will lead to the sort of confusion you are currently displaying.
Wow. How perverted! :shock: The Buddhist Path operates as follows:

1. Right View = 4NTs = craving is to be abandoned

2. No craving = no sex

3. No craving = no pregnancy

4. No craving = no cause or motivation to kill

5. Right View = Right Action = no killing

:roll:
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. [4] Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

MN 117

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