is birth control the same as getting an abortion

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 12, 2018 1:43 pm

ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Sat May 12, 2018 1:57 pm

grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:01 pm
Morality is not something to be cherry-picked, it should be applied universally, not just when it suits us. ;)
:roll:

[The Buddha:]
"I have stopped, Angulimala,
once & for all,
having cast off violence
toward all living beings.
You, though,
are unrestrained toward beings.
That's how I've stopped
and you haven't."

[Angulimala:]
"At long last a greatly revered great seer
for my sake
has come to the great forest.
Having heard your verse
in line with the Dhamma,
I will go about
having abandoned evil."

So saying, the bandit
hurled his sword & weapons
over a cliff
into a chasm,
a pit.
Then the bandit paid homage
to the feet of the One Well-gone,
and right there requested the Going-forth.

Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have :o burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years :o , you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"
Who once was heedless,
but later is not,
brightens the world
like the moon set free from a cloud.

His evil-done deed
is replaced with skillfulness:
he brightens the world
like the moon set free from a cloud.
Compare to Christianity: :thumbsup:
repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke 24:47

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 12, 2018 5:34 pm

I love it how you quote passages that contradict your own point. Makes debating you really easy. :rofl:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat May 12, 2018 6:52 pm

i shouldnt be surprised that my topic generated a lot of responses and debate after i went to bed. but to make sure i'm being honest, i am that pharmacy worker, i just didnt want it to become about me or to inadvertently reveal any personal information
i understand there is a debate about abortion being wrong or what constitutes abortion but we ought put those aside for the sake of this discussion. for the more liberal ones, proceed with 'if terminating an early stage pregnancy IS killing, then'
why would it matter that the parajika includes contraception [that works after pregnancy]? because the common aspect for us is the killing or describing death in any beneficial way. this is an example that i talked about of the same dhamma for monastics and lays. however, the livelihood aspect was my focus. i was a cashier and scanned alcohol from time to time and occasionally insect killer. i may have inadvertently also scanned live lobsters at one point but i'm not sure
there have been several discussions of livelihood but to me there was not a clear answer. there is one sutta that says not to get involved in five types of business. and that is split between those who think you have to own the business in question and those who think any involvement or employment under such conditions is a violation. i could complain about the difficulty in finding a job outside of those conditions, but tough choices have to be made. if someone had a gun to my head and asked me to renounce the triple gem, i'd have to let them kill me, or at least that would be preferable. i doubt whether i can say 'hey i dont want to sell these because im religious' since we're not unionized and i may need to start paying for my diabetic mom's prescriptions after she is kicked off insurance so quitting would be a very hard choice. basically unless i come into direct knowledge of this being wrong i'll tough it out and hope we dont get too many buying birth control
i dont think morality is grey at all if the boundaries are clearly defined
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat May 12, 2018 6:57 pm

Aloka wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:46 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:39 am
Aloka wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:26 am
So when did you start believing in literal rebirth and other realms, "DooDoot" ?
I've always believed in "literal" re-birth. You must mistake me for someone else. My views on "re-birth" I personally consider to literally accord with the Pali suttas. :roll:
:rolleye: Well I guess it depends on how you define rebirth these days . I'm not talking about moment to moment rebirth, I'm talking about if you get sick and die (as in dead in a coffin) and then return in the future as someone's baby called "Ellie".

.
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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dylanj
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by dylanj » Sun May 13, 2018 1:34 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:03 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:04 am
...in the vinaya i have heard its a parajika to dispense abortion or contraceptives...
If your friend is not a monk/nun why would they care if they committed a parajika offence???

Contraceptive birth control is not the same as an abortion. How can wearing a condom be the same as abortion?

And why draw the line at contraceptives? Pharmacies sell all sorts of poisons. Selling poisons is wrong livelihood. Pharmacies sell all sorts of intoxicants. Selling intoxicants is wrong livelihood.

You would have the same problem working in a supermarket.

Shall I continue, or do you get the point?

the reason it is a parajika is because it is killing. it is the parajika of killing a human. it is against the 1st precept.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 13, 2018 2:16 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 6:52 pm
i understand there is a debate about abortion being wrong or what constitutes abortion but we ought put those aside for the sake of this discussion. for the more liberal ones, proceed with 'if terminating an early stage pregnancy IS killing, then'
The killing is done by the killer (not by you). The birth control pills are created to stop conception and that is the reason why women take them. Regardless, many embryos naturally abort or miscarry. Your mind appears to be creating (abhinibbatti) views of "beings" ("self-views"; sattānaṃ) out of early stage cells. This is called "jati" ("birth") that leads to suffering, namely, the production (abhinibbatti) of "beings" & "groups of beings" (sattanikāye) out of the mere appearance or manifestation ("play"; pātubhāvo) of the aggregates obtained (paṭilābho) via the sense spheres (āyatanānaṃ). The Buddha taught every new birth is suffering (dukkhā jāti punappunaṃ).
why would it matter that the parajika includes contraception [that works after pregnancy]? because the common aspect for us is the killing or describing death in any beneficial way. this is an example that i talked about of the same dhamma for monastics and lays.
The ideas in the Vinaya about consciousness entering into an embryo are for monks to ensure monks are not subject to any public disrepute. If you create "self-views" out of tiny embryonic cells then how are you going to stop creating "self-views" from fully formed aggregates that bind the mind to dukkha? :shrug:
there have been several discussions of livelihood but to me there was not a clear answer.
The answer is found within your heart. You are merely a cashier and not a business owner. It is the customer & not you that is doing the kamma.
there is one sutta that says not to get involved in five types of business.
Working as a cashier in a pharmacy does not fall into these fives types of business.
and that is split between those who think you have to own the business in question and those who think any involvement or employment under such conditions is a violation.
Look into your heart for the answer.
i could complain about the difficulty in finding a job outside of those conditions, but tough choices have to be made.
To have a job is most important.
i doubt whether i can say 'hey i dont want to sell these because im religious' since we're not unionized and i may need to start paying for my diabetic mom's prescriptions after she is kicked off insurance so quitting would be a very hard choice.
I posted a video by a Christian extremist. You are starting to sound like that Christian extremist. Birth control pills are intended to stop conception. Even if they occasionally terminate an embryo, this is not related to your kamma. Couples today generally do not want more than two children. They do not care if they abort an embryo. Even if they know the pill aborts some embryos, they will continue to take the pill.

Your Dhamma duty is to support your mother and keep your job.
basically unless i come into direct knowledge of this being wrong i'll tough it out and hope we dont get too many buying birth control
There is no need to "tough it" out. Instead, develop equanimity, i.e. the reflection that the customers are the doers & owners of their actions. The Christian extremist in the video I posted is a "Creationist"; with delusions about the creation & maintenance of a perfect moral world & order. Where as Buddhism teaches the world is created by uwholesome craving (tanha) and that this craving leads to suffering. The world is impermanent; going through cycles of decay & occasionally recovery. Birth control is a major spiritual problem in the world & one of the major signs of a decaying world. The use of birth control is the decision of the world and unrelated to you. You are not the new Messiah.
i dont think morality is grey at all if the boundaries are clearly defined
Morality can be a prison, which is why sīlabbata-parāmāsa is considered a lower fetter. Just look after your mom and reflect upon the nature of the world. The Buddha taught the arahant has disenchantment towards all of the world (sabbaloke anabhiratasaññā). Unlike the Christian extremist or a Mahayana, our role here is to not save a rotting world (since this is not possible, anyway).
if someone had a gun to my head and asked me to renounce the triple gem, i'd have to let them kill me, or at least that would be preferable.
For many, refuge in the Triple Gem is sīlabbata-parāmāsa. The Buddha exhorted True Refuge seeks Stream-Entry by giving up self-views.
178. Better than sole sovereignty over the earth, better than going to heaven, better even than lordship over all the worlds is the supramundane Fruition of Stream Entrance.

Dhammapada
Last edited by retrofuturist on Sun May 13, 2018 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Irrelevant commentary about another member removed.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun May 13, 2018 4:52 am

“In what way, Bhante, is one a lay follower?”

“When, Mahānāma, one has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha, in that way one is a lay follower.”

https://suttacentral.net/an8.25/en/bodhi
???
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Grigoris
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 13, 2018 7:50 am

dylanj wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 1:34 am
the reason it is a parajika is because it is killing. it is the parajika of killing a human. it is against the 1st precept.
Irrelevant to my point, but I will run with it: Taking contraceptive pills MAY kill a human embryo (actually, before attaching to the uterus wall it is not even an embryo, it is a fertilised ovum, or a zygote) but that is not what contraceptive pills are designed to do. Women generally do not take contraceptive pills for Termination of Pregnancy, they take them to avoid pregnancy. Anyway, a human zygote or embryo (or even fetus) is not a human being quite yet. Not by a long shot. The process being described in the OP takes place really early in the game, there is a rather high possibility that the embryo will not attach to the uterus wall anyway. Natural or spontaneous miscarriage at this point can be 10-20%. Actually 30-50% of zygotes and fetuses are naturally miscarried.

If a (straight) male Buddhist is truly concerned that a woman may be killing a zygote by taking a contraceptive pill, then that person should ensure that they take responsibility for contraception during vaginal penetration (eg use a condom or get a vasectomy).

Regardless... Parajika offences (an offence leading to disrobing) pertain to monastics and nuns, not lay people. You cannot disrobe a lay person.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Sun May 13, 2018 8:06 am

DooDoot wrote:The member of this forum named Aloka is an example. Aloka appears to be a woman & a feminist and her refuge in a government bureaucracy website shows her priority is birth control rather than whether or not birth control pills kill embryos. This is the way of an immoral & decaying world.
While its often been clear in the past that you and your "Men of the Infinite" pals are misogynists, Element, you need to stop implying that I'm a feminist, take refuge in government bureaucracy, am immoral etc, - because I haven't even expressed a personal view about birth control or abortion in this topic.


:shrug:

.
Last edited by Aloka on Sun May 13, 2018 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr Man
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Mr Man » Sun May 13, 2018 8:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:16 am
This is the way of an immoral & decaying world.
Says DootDoot/Element who says that sometimes there is a "need for killing".

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31755&start=40#p470653

And that believes that Putin's actions in Syria are good kamma.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31755&start=20#p470330

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 13, 2018 8:57 am

grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 7:50 am
Irrelevant to my point, but I will run with it: Taking contraceptive pills MAY kill a human embryo (actually, before attaching to the uterus wall it is not even an embryo, it is a fertilised ovum, or a zygote) but that is not what contraceptive pills are designed to do. Women generally do not take contraceptive pills for Termination of Pregnancy, they take them to avoid pregnancy.
The above was posted before & deemed irrelevant because the topic is based on the new awareness that birth control pills can kill an zygote. Often in life we believe something is harmless until we learn it is not harmless. Thus our relationship towards that thing changes.
grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 7:50 am
Anyway, a human zygote or embryo (or even fetus) is not a human being quite yet. Not by a long shot.
The precept refers to not killing "breathing" things. Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi. Therefore, if the zygote or embryo breathes it is a breathing thing that should not be killed according to the precept.
The fetus does not actually breathe in the womb. The mother breathes for the fetus, and essential oxygen is passed to the fetus through the umbilical cord.

The fetus does make breathing-like movements though. These begin at 9 weeks of pregnancy and allow the fetus to practice this breathing movement.

This means that when the baby is born, he/she will be able to breathe straight away.

http://www.beginbeforebirth.org/in-the- ... evelopment
The Buddhist Vinaya says when the first consciousness arises in the embryo therefore when the embryo can first experience "vedana" or "feeling sensations".
grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 7:50 am
If a (straight) male Buddhist is truly concerned that a woman may be killing a zygote by taking a contraceptive pill, then that person should ensure that they take responsibility for contraception during vaginal penetration (eg use a condom or get a vasectomy).
Condoms are not 100% fail-safe and some couples may want to have some children therefore vasectomy may not be an option. If you knew anything about women you would understand their minds are fickle and their urge to have a baby can arise anytime.
grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 7:50 am
Regardless... Parajika offences (an offence leading to disrobing) pertain to monastics and nuns, not lay people. You cannot disrobe a lay person.
Irrelevant. Killing is a kamma that leads to hell according to Buddhism. A woman that has many abortions may later suffer from psychological problems (which is "hell"). The precepts in Buddhism are not "rules" or "commandments" but dhammas that prevent gross types of suffering. :roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun May 13, 2018 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr Man
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Mr Man » Sun May 13, 2018 9:06 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:57 am
Killing is a kamma that leads to hell according to Buddhism.
Although DooDoot does seem to be want to use Buddhism to support killing.
The Buddha was not a type of extreme freak you wish to impute. The Buddha made a clear distinction between the Dhamma for monks & dhamma for laypeople. Killing in self-defence is not a crime for a layperson.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=31755&start=40#p470653

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Sun May 13, 2018 9:24 am

DooDoot wrote:If you knew anything about women you would understand their minds are fickle and their urge to have a baby can arise anytime.
Says the expert on women.....


:rolleye:

.

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robertk
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by robertk » Sun May 13, 2018 9:37 am

Try to make posts less personal please everyone :)
mod suggestion
. :anjali:

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