is birth control the same as getting an abortion

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DooDoot
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 4:40 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:28 am
so would it not be bad kamma if i drove a truckload of slaves from point a to point b? would that just be doing my job?
Sure. Working in the slavery industry would be bad kamma. But in the pharmacy, the customers are the doers & owners of their actions. The customers CHOOSE to buy the pills from their own volition. Women want these pills for many reasons, such as:

1. Avoiding pregnancy because having a child today in the world is economically costly, will little community social support.

2. Having many children can be tiring, due to the hard work.

3. Keep their man sexually gratified otherwise their man will find another woman (given birth control creates a large pool of available women).

My parents generation generally did not use birth; they controlled their sex lives & they believed in the life-long marriage. Today, the world is not the same as this therefore non-Dhamma women want birth control.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 14, 2018 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Aloka
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Aloka » Mon May 14, 2018 4:47 am

DooDoot wrote:I haven't noticed any restrictions on this forum stopping women from posting
The reason women aren't posting in this thread isn't because of forum rules, its because of the attitude towards them and the comments such as "Women have the anusaya (underlying tendency) of lust" and so on.

Life's too short to waste arguing on the internet and trying to put others down, Element/DooDoot. I don't have anything else to say here now, except:

Breathe.... relax... ....


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Last edited by Aloka on Mon May 14, 2018 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DNS » Mon May 14, 2018 4:48 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:28 am
so would it not be bad kamma if i drove a truckload of slaves from point a to point b? would that just be doing my job?
That sounds much worse than the pharmacy job (there is no doubt that the business is wrong livelihood, dealing in human trade and you are directly participating in it). In the pharmacy job, it is the physician who orders which drugs are to be administered, then the pharmacist fills the order and explains to the patient how to take them. The patient chooses to take the medicine. The pharmacy tech and pharmacy cashier have no decision making duties. So it is far more blameless, imo. And how could you be expected to study and understand all the interactions of all the hundreds of drugs and medications out there to make moral judgments about medicine a patient is picking up? That is what the physician and pharmacists are for. The pharmacist (doctor of pharmacy degree) alone takes 3 to 4 years of continued educational and practical training beyond the bachelor's degree. As a tech or cashier, that is not your job to understand and know about every medicine being administered.

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 4:49 am

Aloka wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:47 am
The reason women aren't posting in this thread isn't because of forum rules, its because of the attitude towards them and the comments such as "Women have the anusaya (underlying tendency) of lust" and so on.
But the Buddhist suttas say women & men have the anusaya (underlying tendency) of lust (AN 7.11; MN 148; etc). Why engage in denying the teachings of the Lord Buddha and also engage in denying reality? Women have the anusaya (underlying tendency) of lust. Women have urges to have children.
Aloka wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 4:47 am
Breathe.... relax... ....
Sounds like what a midwife says to women giving birth to children.


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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 5:01 am

thanks david. hmm
it seems like if we were in a society where slavery was the norm and i was a hired transporter of cargo there would be the same principles at work
in another thread it was talked about being a bartender. relying on logic, i dont see the difference, and perhaps there is not one.
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DNS » Mon May 14, 2018 5:01 am

How about a pharmacy worker giving medications for ED to men? Perhaps the men might use it to have extra-marital affairs and/or to be able to engage in sexual relations for multiple times in a one day period? In the same way it is not the pharmacy worker's responsibility to make such moral judgments (and speculation), he should also not do so against women either, in my opinion.

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 5:12 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:01 am
it seems like if we were in a society where slavery was the norm and i was a hired transporter of cargo there would be the same principles at work in another thread it was talked about being a bartender. relying on logic, i dont see the difference, and perhaps there is not one.
I was a cocktail bartender for 4 years (from 18 yo to 21yo) and a bar/restaurant manager (from 22yo to 23 yo). I developed many good qualities working in the industry, such as how to serve people; the wish to make people happy, how to communicate with people; regardless of how misguided it was at the time. Its not particularly bad kamma until you see people getting wasted or living dysfunctional lives (as I saw in my last six months, when I managed a bar/restaurant in a bad part of town). Regardless:

1. The slave does not choose to be a slave. Therefore, working in slavery is the worst kamma.

2. People choose to drink alcohol & not all people are seriously harmed by drinking alcohol. This is a lesser kamma.

3. Women choose to take birth control pills to prevent pregnancy and only a small amount of pills cause abortion. This is a lesser kamma.

The world is now both immoral & over-populated. Birth control is part of the impermanence & decay of the world. You can either use this reality to concoct morality delusions in your mind or use this reality for enlightenment. The women want the birth control for what they believe is a beneficial purpose for their life. They believe it is good. You believe it is bad. What is occurring here is a disagreement of views.

With metta
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 14, 2018 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 5:16 am

i'd say it's a stretch.. nothing is fundamental to ED meds that will cause sexual misconduct or killing, whereas birth control has a fundamental nature supposedly to kill any being that makes it past the stage of prevention. if we talked about rat poison, where is the line drawn. is scanning rat poison wrong livelihood as a supermarket clerk, is stocking them, is transporting them, or do you need to be a store manager, any upper level management, or ceo? its unfortunate for us to talk about women at all, it is only because they have a uterus which stores a living being, like it's interesting but it is a needless quarrel

[late comment edit:] or is it the manufacturers of rat poison, and in which case is it the laborers in a factory or is it the ceos or is it the patent holder of the idea to convert valuable resources into materials for the purpose of ending life? :thinking:
Last edited by Dhammarakkhito on Mon May 14, 2018 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon May 14, 2018 5:18 am

ok thats interesting doodoot i just dont want to be hurting myself
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:18 am
Its not my new theory. I merely posted two facts but it was your mind that got sucked into creating a new theory from those two facts. Contrary to your view, an embryo obviously "breathes", i.e., is dependent upon oxygen to live. That an embryo does not breath directly does not mean it does not breath. Your "literalism" does not appear particularly wise, here.
Amoeba also need oxygen to survive, they also do not breathe.
]So according to you, women don't want to have children.
Never said anything of the sort. Some women want to have children, some women don't, regardless of what the Sutta say.
I am "misogynist" for saying: "Women have an urge to have children".
Yes. Refer to my above statement.
To provide sexual pleasure for men?
Only a misogynist (like you) would even consider that this is an option.
So you are saying abortions do not occur due to "vibhava tanha" or "aversion" to having a child?
There are a million different reasons why a woman would terminate a pregnancy.
So you are saying "abortions" have no emotional side-effects?
No. I am saying that you have no idea about what the Hell realms are and and why sentient beings are reborn there. I am saying that your idea of a Hell realm is a fabrication of your Christian and pseudo-psychological baggage. The Hell realms are one of the SIX realms (you seem to ignore the existence of the other five) that one is reborn into on the basis of their kammic predisposition. Mainly on the basis of which of the afflictions (ignorance, hatred, greed, jealousy, lust, pride) is dominant in their mind.
You are saying...
You are saying a whole lot of BS that has no bearing whatsoever on what I am actually saying. And then you are posting Sutta quotes that are not only irrelevant to what I am saying but also irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
This sounds very "misogynist"...
It would take an insane leap of "logic" to consider my statement that men must also take responsibility for contraception as being misogynistic. But then it seems you are prone to bizarre logic.
I haven't noticed any restrictions on this forum stopping women from posting. :smile:
Except maybe for the level of misogyny of many of the men (including you) posting here. For example: ONE woman posted in this discussion and you used personal attacks in an attempt to degrade her, assassinate her character and make her view appear irrelevant.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 14, 2018 6:57 am

grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 am
No. I am saying that you have no idea about what the Hell realms are and and why sentient beings are reborn there. I am saying that your idea of a Hell realm is a fabrication of your Christian and pseudo-psychological baggage.
Actually, again, you seem to impute your own beliefs onto others. Based on what you wrote, it appears it is your mind that has Christian and pseudo-psychological baggage. The hell realms I am referring to are those taught by the Buddha, as follows:
Bhikkhus, it is a gain for you, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
:alien:
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 am
The Hell realms are one of the SIX realms (you seem to ignore the existence of the other five) that one is reborn into on the basis of their kammic predisposition.
The idea of five realms appears to be a later teaching, as follows:
And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

AN 6.63
Originally, the Buddha obviously taught about two realms: heaven & hell, as follows:
When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

MN 4
Hell, ghost & animal are all woeful states; they are all dukkha; they are all hell. For example, hungry ghost women who take birth control so they can find some short term comfort in physical sex going from man to man to man are basically living in a hell of terror; the terror of loneliness, terror of fear & terror of desperation. Hungry ghost existence is hell; is terror. Unlike you, with Christian and pseudo-Mahayana baggage, I have seen the hungry ghost hell realm with my own eyes. :shock: That is why, unlike you, I don't post about having a vasectomy so I can "get laid".
There are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other world after having directly known & realized it for themselves.'

MN 117
:candle:
grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 am
Except maybe for the level of misogyny of many of the men (including you) posting here. For example: ONE woman posted in this discussion and you used personal attacks in an attempt to degrade her, assassinate her character and make her view appear irrelevant.
No. Again, you are treating women like they have no intelligence; that they are a weaker sex, similar to Christianity. It is you that appears to be engaged in misogyny. The woman that posted on this forum has actually been attacking my good self. Regardless, I treat this woman as an equal that she can learn Dhamma. Unlike you, I do not treat her as a protected species.
Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers

1 Peter 3:7
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon May 14, 2018 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 14, 2018 7:51 am

Greetings,

I have removed some needlessly personal back and forth from this topic.

Please refrain from going off topic, and if you see someone else go off-topic, please exercise sense restraint and refrain from responding to them.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by binocular » Mon May 14, 2018 7:57 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:18 am
I haven't noticed any restrictions on this forum stopping women from posting.
Indeed. My gripe is 1. with women who are mostly passive in these matters and who quietly go along with "social norms", even when that costs them their health and even life; and 2. with people, mostly women, who expect women to just quietly go along with "social norms", even when that costs them their health and even life.

- - -
grigoris wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 9:58 am
Many women would not need to have abortions if men demanded effective male contraception, or were more responsible with their dicks.
But most men are not going to do that, are they.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 8:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:57 am
The idea of five realms appears to be a later teaching, as follows:
You cannot know if it is a later or earlier teaching as the teachings do not have date stamps on them. But, for example, we know the Buddha's teaching on Dependent Origination came after the teaching on the Four Noble Truths, does that make it any less relevant??? Your criteria for judgement on the validity of a teaching are bizarre, to say the least.
Originally, the Buddha obviously taught ...
Originally we are taught about vector theory, does that make quantum physics irrelevant or invalid?
The woman that posted on this forum has actually been attacking my good self.
It may be time you reassessed how "good" this self is.
Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers

1 Peter 3:7
Like I said earlier: Buddhism is not Christianity. Leave your baggage at home.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: is birth control the same as getting an abortion

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 8:39 am

binocular wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:57 am
But most men are not going to do that, are they.
Unfortunately not, which is why they should refrain from judging women when they try to take the matter into their own hands.

Put up or shut up should be the guiding principle for men and their relationship to contraception.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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