On not caring

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

On not caring

Post by binocular » Tue May 08, 2018 4:55 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:25 am
And I don't care whether you care. If you post in the classical Theravada forum or its sub-forums, then whether you care or whether you don't care, you should expect that your questions will be answered according to the Theravada abhidhammic and commentarial point of view.
Is it in accordance with the Theravada abhidhammic and commentarial point of view to say, "And I don't care whether you care" ?

:alien:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4206
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: On not caring

Post by Dhammanando » Tue May 08, 2018 6:29 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 4:55 pm
Is it in accordance with the Theravada abhidhammic and commentarial point of view to say, "And I don't care whether you care" ?
Given the commentaries frequent praise of truthfulness, it would be quite in conformity with them to say that one doesn’t care if one doesn’t care.

.
  • Saccena vinā sīlādīnaṃ asambhavato paṭiññānurūpaṃ paṭipattiyā abhāvato ca. Saccadhammātikkame ca sabbapāpadhammānaṃ samosaraṇato. Asaccasandhassa apaccayikabhāvato āyatiñca anādeyyavacanatāvahanato. Sampannasaccassa ca, sabbaguṇādhiṭṭhānabhāvato. Saccādhiṭṭhānena sabbabodhisambhārānaṃ pārisuddhipāripūrisāmatthiyato.

    “Without truthfulness, the qualities of moral habit and so on are impossible, and there can be no practice in accordance with one’s vows. All evil dhammas converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. On the other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble qualities. With truthfulness as the foundation, he is capable of purifying and fulfilling all the requisites of enlightenment.”
    (Cariyā-a. 299-300)

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: On not caring

Post by binocular » Tue May 08, 2018 8:36 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 6:29 pm
Given the commentaries frequent praise of truthfulness, it would be quite in conformity with them to say that one doesn’t care if one doesn’t care.
And it's alright not to care?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: On not caring

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 08, 2018 11:24 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 8:36 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 6:29 pm
Given the commentaries frequent praise of truthfulness, it would be quite in conformity with them to say that one doesn’t care if one doesn’t care.
And it's alright not to care?
With home let go, faring on in homelessness,
in villages the Sage having no intimates,
rid of sensual desires, having no preference,
would not with any arguments people engage.

Unattached, one wanders forth in the world,
a Nāga, ungrasping, would not dispute those,
just as the water lily, thorny-stemmed species,
sullied is not by water or mud,
even so is the ungreedy Sage proclaiming Peace,
unsullied by desires and pleasures in the world.

https://suttacentral.net/snp4.9/en/mills#sc10--sc11
:heart:
Mike

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4206
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: On not caring

Post by Dhammanando » Wed May 09, 2018 2:00 am

binocular wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 8:36 pm
And it's alright not to care?
What I meant by "I don't care..." is "I attach no importance to..."

Whether or not it's fitting to attach no importance to someone's views on Dhamma depends, I think, on who the person is. For example, if I hear that scholars of the calibre of Bhikkhus Bodhi or Anālayo, or Professors Gethin or Harvey, have voiced some view differing from my own, then I would care. I would want to look into the matter to see what texts and what chain of reasoning had led them to their views. As these are men who've earned the right to have their views on Dhamma taken seriously, to dismiss anything they say without troubling to investigate it would strike me as rash and imprudent.

But in the case of the Layt — and for reasons that I'm sure are as obvious to you as they are to me — the boot's on the other foot.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11806
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: On not caring

Post by DNS » Wed May 09, 2018 2:21 am

Kesi Sutta AN 4.111 (excerpt):

"If a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."

"But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, 'I kill him, Kesi.'"

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:41 pm

Re: On not caring

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed May 09, 2018 3:10 am

What about metta and the Brahma Viharas?

Delurking for a while, I am honored to encounter this forum to learn, please excuse my delusion in advance.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4206
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: On not caring

Post by Dhammanando » Wed May 09, 2018 4:11 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:10 am
What about metta and the Brahma Viharas?
They would be relevant in cases where a different sense of "to care" is intended by the speaker and where "I don't care" would mean more or less: "I don't have mettā and karuṇā."

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: On not caring

Post by binocular » Wed May 09, 2018 9:21 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:24 pm
binocular wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 8:36 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 6:29 pm
Given the commentaries frequent praise of truthfulness, it would be quite in conformity with them to say that one doesn’t care if one doesn’t care.
And it's alright not to care?
With home let go, faring on in homelessness,
in villages the Sage having no intimates,
rid of sensual desires, having no preference,
would not with any arguments people engage.

Unattached, one wanders forth in the world,
a Nāga, ungrasping, would not dispute those,
just as the water lily, thorny-stemmed species,
sullied is not by water or mud,
even so is the ungreedy Sage proclaiming Peace,
unsullied by desires and pleasures in the world.

https://suttacentral.net/snp4.9/en/mills#sc10--sc11
:heart:
The suttas talk about equanimity and ignoring someone as sometimes being the proper ways to behave. But I've yet to see a reference where the person practicing equanimity or ignoring someone is actually advised to or prasied for actually telling someone words to the effect of "I don't care" or "You're not worth talking to".
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: On not caring

Post by binocular » Wed May 09, 2018 9:24 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 4:11 am
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 3:10 am
What about metta and the Brahma Viharas?
They would be relevant in cases where a different sense of "to care" is intended by the speaker and where "I don't care" would mean more or less: "I don't have mettā and karuṇā."
That's what "I don't care" means.

It gets to me when a monk or someone in position of power says "I don't care", and it doesn't really matter in regard to what or whom he says it.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4395
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: On not caring

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 am

binocular wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:24 am

It gets to me when a monk or someone in position of power says "I don't care", and it doesn't really matter in regard to what or whom he says it.
Does this mean that unless a monk has metta and karuna for everything and everyone, it "gets to you"?

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4206
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: On not caring

Post by Dhammanando » Wed May 09, 2018 10:10 am

binocular wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:24 am
That's what "I don't care" means.
It's one of the things that it can mean, but the expression is hardly a monosemous one. For a start it's used in rather different ways on the two sides of the Atlantic.

https://www.simpleenglishvideos.com/don ... ifference/
binocular wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:24 am
It gets to me when a monk or someone in position of power says "I don't care", and it doesn't really matter in regard to what or whom he says it.
It might get to you less if you would do the monk the courtesy of accepting his clarification of what he means: "I attach no importance to..."

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: On not caring

Post by binocular » Wed May 09, 2018 10:13 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 am
Does this mean that unless a monk has metta and karuna for everything and everyone, it "gets to you"?
No, just when he flat out says that he doesn't care about someone or something.
binocular wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:21 am
The suttas talk about equanimity and ignoring someone as sometimes being the proper ways to behave. But I've yet to see a reference where the person practicing equanimity or ignoring someone is actually advised to or prasied for actually telling someone words to the effect of "I don't care" or "You're not worth talking to".
There's a big difference between not caring about someone, and actually flat out telling them that you don't care about them.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4395
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: On not caring

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 09, 2018 10:17 am

binocular wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:13 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 10:01 am
Does this mean that unless a monk has metta and karuna for everything and everyone, it "gets to you"?
No, just when he flat out says that he doesn't care about someone or something.
binocular wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:21 am
The suttas talk about equanimity and ignoring someone as sometimes being the proper ways to behave. But I've yet to see a reference where the person practicing equanimity or ignoring someone is actually advised to or prasied for actually telling someone words to the effect of "I don't care" or "You're not worth talking to".
There's a big difference between not caring about someone, and actually flat out telling them that you don't care about them.
Is this still referring to the quote by the Venerable Dhammanando in your OP? If so, he doesn't say he doesn't care about someone; he says that he doesn't care what view they have on a specific topic. There is a big difference.

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: On not caring

Post by binocular » Wed May 09, 2018 10:24 am

Saying "I don't care", in whatever context, is like saying "f***", in whatever context.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 65 guests