Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

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LostOne
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Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by LostOne »

I've got nothing but love towards the buddhist teachings and the pali cannon.

When traveling to Thailand, though, I notice people bowing to statues and lighting insence..near and inside of temples.

I do not know why, but sometimes the sight of it is offputting. As it reminds me of the story of Moses where people were worshipping the huge golden calf that people had built in the holy bible and then were struck dead for worshipping/bowing down to golden statues.

I tend to avoid such acts when visiting monasteries...just in case.

Buddha never said, "Worship these statues in my image after I pass away." did he?

Is it wrong to avoid something cultural such as this?

Thoughts?

:bow: :buddha1:
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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by mikenz66 »

It depends on what one thinks one is doing with the ritual. I like this quote from Ajahn Sumedho:
Sumedho wrote: I personally like rituals. They are quite pleasant to do; they are calming. One does them with a group of people. It is doing something that is pleasant, together and in unison. The intention is always good: to radiate kindness and to chant the teachings of the Buddha in Pali. It tends to uplift and inspire the minds of many people. That is its only function as far as I can tell.

I think ceremony makes life much more beautiful. I have seen Dhamma communities which do not have ceremonies. They are a bit gross, actually.
[see viewtopic.php?t=20963#p294558 for more....]

:anjali:
Mike
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pilgrim
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by pilgrim »

The aversion to idols and statues is a hang-up left-over from Abrahamaic religions. What's wrong with statues ? No statue has ever hurt anyone in history (unlike imaginary gods). A Buddhist bowing to a statue is no different from someone carrying around a photo of one's loved ones in the wallet.
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one_awakening
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by one_awakening »

A lot of the time, it's out of respect to the Buddha. For me, it's out of gratitude for the wonderful teachings he has left us.
“You only lose what you cling to”
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

a ritual bears fruit depending on what you think while you do it
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... suttam.htm
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/btg/btg35.htm
belief in rites and rituals as essential to enlightenment or that you dont have to put in any work, just perform them with what ever mind state, that is a fetter that binds you to renewed existence. there are a lot of people who perform these rituals and they are empty for them. however some may bow to the image with a mind of veneration and for them it bears fruit
i am curious tho because dāna (generosity) always ripens wholesomely even if your motive is completely selfish and if you give as if you're throwing it away.
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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by mikenz66 »

The Buddha wrote: And for what reason is a Buddha awakened for themselves worthy of a monument? So that many people will inspire confidence in their hearts, thinking: ‘This is the monument for that Buddha awakened for himself!’ And having done so, when their body breaks up, after death, they are reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. It is for this reason that a Buddha awakened for himself is worthy of a monument.

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato#sc210
LostOne
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by LostOne »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 1:54 am
The Buddha wrote: And for what reason is a Buddha awakened for themselves worthy of a monument? So that many people will inspire confidence in their hearts, thinking: ‘This is the monument for that Buddha awakened for himself!’ And having done so, when their body breaks up, after death, they are reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. It is for this reason that a Buddha awakened for himself is worthy of a monument.

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato#sc210
Making more sense as to why.
:thanks:
chownah
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by chownah »

LostOne wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 2:43 am
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 1:54 am
The Buddha wrote: And for what reason is a Buddha awakened for themselves worthy of a monument? So that many people will inspire confidence in their hearts, thinking: ‘This is the monument for that Buddha awakened for himself!’ And having done so, when their body breaks up, after death, they are reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. It is for this reason that a Buddha awakened for himself is worthy of a monument.

https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato#sc210
Making more sense as to why.
:thanks:
Yes, this exerpt from dn16 shows a helpful way to use buddha images......however......don't make the mistake of thinking that all buddhists use buddha images in this way. Some buddhists use buddha images in the attempt to bring power and wealth or health etc.......as if the image has the abililty to grant ones wishes. Some buddhists even worship the image as if it was a god.........there is a commonly held ritual done in thailand when a new image is installed which is called opening the buddha's eyes which I think clearly bespeaks of the image as having sentience.

I'm not saying that these are reasons to reject buddha images but just a reminder that we all live in ignorance (according to the buddha's teachings).
chownah
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

in my previous response, i said rites and rituals. is it rites and rituals or precepts and practices or rules and observances
you may look at the precepts the same way. the five faultless gifts are keeping the five precepts, but in the same way a baby is not consummate in what's skillful, keeping the five is not fulfilling the goal.

[Punnika:] Who taught you this — the ignorant to the ignorant — 'One, through water ablution, is from evil kamma set free?' In that case, they'd all go to heaven: all the frogs, turtles, serpents, crocodiles, & anything else that lives in the water. Sheep-butchers, pork-butchers, fishermen, trappers, thieves, executioners, & any other evil doers, would, through water ablution, be from evil kamma set free. If these rivers could carry off the evil kamma you've done in the past, they'd carry off your merit as well, and then you'd be completely left out. Whatever it is that you fear, that you're always going down to the water, don't do it. Don't let the cold hurt your skin."

[The Brahman:] I've been following the miserable path, good lady, and now you've brought me back to the noble. I give you this robe for water-ablution.

[Punnika:] Let the robe be yours. I don't need it. If you're afraid of pain, if you dislike pain, then don't do any evil kamma, in open, in secret. But if you do or will do any evil kamma, you'll gain no freedom from pain, even if you fly up & hurry away. If you're afraid of pain, if you dislike pain, go to the Awakened One for refuge, go to the Dhamma & Sangha. Take on the precepts: That will lead to your liberation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught
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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by mikenz66 »

chownah wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 2:59 am
LostOne wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 2:43 am
mikenz66 wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 1:54 am
Making more sense as to why.
:thanks:
Yes, this exerpt from dn16 shows a helpful way to use buddha images......however......don't make the mistake of thinking that all buddhists use buddha images in this way. Some buddhists use buddha images in the attempt to bring power and wealth or health etc.......as if the image has the abililty to grant ones wishes. Some buddhists even worship the image as if it was a god.........there is a commonly held ritual done in thailand when a new image is installed which is called opening the buddha's eyes which I think clearly bespeaks of the image as having sentience.

I'm not saying that these are reasons to reject buddha images but just a reminder that we all live in ignorance (according to the buddha's teachings).
chownah
I agree. That's why I said earlier:
It depends on what one thinks one is doing with the ritual.
Mike
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Assaji
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by Assaji »

LostOne wrote: Thu May 03, 2018 10:58 pm Buddha never said, "Worship these statues in my image after I pass away." did he?
Seems like antropomorhic images of the Buddha were initially forbidden by Vinaya.
In Chapter 48 of the Vinaya of the Sarvaastivaadins (3) there is a long passage which deals with the decoration of monasteries. Anaathapi.n.dika says to Buddha: 'World-honoured one, if images of yours are not allowed to be made, pray may we not at least make images of Bodhisattvas(4) in attendance upon you?' Buddha then grants this permission.
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MEL/waley.htm

Samantapasadika and Kalingabodhi Jataka have passages to that effect:

https://books.google.com/books?id=mYYWb ... 6&lpg=PA66

About aniconism in Buddhism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Buddhism
https://smarthistory.org/aniconic-vs-ic ... -in-india/
http://www.publicartinchicago.com/buddh ... nic-phase/
http://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/journals ... /1938/2964
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TamHanhHi
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by TamHanhHi »

It's all about intention. Bowing to a statue won't cause you become enlightened, but it may be refreshing for you. Like others said, it can give you confidence. For me, I bow out of respect for the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, and it just reminds me that I can practice and achieve the same liberation the Buddha and all the arahants before me did.
"Just as a large banyan tree, on level ground where four roads meet, is a haven for the birds all around, even so a lay person of conviction is a haven for many people: monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers."AN 5.38
dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by dharmacorps »

I know a mahayana Buddhist who make a resolution to bow whenever he saw a Buddha anywhere in the world, no matter where it was (an idol in a temple, a picture in a magazine, etc). It can be used as a mindfulness practice or demonstration of respect. I doubt very many Buddhists actually are worshipping idols.
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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by mikenz66 »

Rudyard Kipling gave a good expression of the Western perception of idols in "The Road to Mandalay" (1892):
...
'Er petticoat was yaller an' 'er little cap was green,
An' 'er name was Supi-yaw-lat—jes' the same as Theebaw's Queen,
An' I seed her first a-smokin' of a whackin' white cheroot,
An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:

⁠Bloomin' idol made o' mud—
⁠What they called the Great Gawd Budd—

⁠Plucky lot she cared for idols when I kissed 'er where she stud!
On the road to Mandalay,
Where the flyin' fishes play,
An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China
'crost the Bay!
...
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Departme ... s/Mandalay
This version captures the feeling of the ex-soldier lamenting that he is no longer in Asia with his girlfriend...


Ship me somewhere's east of Suez, where the best is like the worst,
Where there aren't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst;
For the Temple-bells are callin', an' it's there that I would be ---
By the old Moulmein Pagoda, lookin' lazy at the sea;
:heart:
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SarathW
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Re: Buddhists bowing to golden statues...

Post by SarathW »

It is the gradual training.
- First you experience suffering
- Then you develop Saddha (bowing to a statue is the very basic state of this)
- Then Sila, Samadhi, and Panna
Generally by attaining Sotapanna one refrain from rites and rituals.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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