Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

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pilgrim
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Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by pilgrim »

Woman fails to get declaration she is Buddhist

PUTRAJAYA: A woman who claimed she was an illegitimate child born of a Muslim father and Buddhist mother, who has since passed away, lost her appeal to be declared a non-Muslim.

A Court of Appeal panel, comprising Umi Kalthum Abdul Majid, Vernon Ong Lam Kiat and Suraya Othman, today struck out Rosliza Ibrahim’s bid to quash the Shah Alam High Court’s decision on June 22, 2017 to dismiss her originating summons for a declaration that she was Buddhist and not a Muslim.

Umi, who chaired the panel, said there was no appealable error in the High Court judge’s decision.

Rosliza, 36, filed an originating summons in 2015 for a declaration that she was an illegitimate child born to a Buddhist mother, that she was not a Muslim and therefore the shariah courts had no jurisdiction over her.

She claimed she was raised a Buddhist by her mother and continues to profess Buddhism to this day.

She named the Selangor state government as respondent in her originating summons. The Selangor Islamic Religious Council (Mais) was admitted as an intervener.

The High Court, in its ruling, held that Rosliza was born a Muslim and that only the shariah courts had the power to decide on her application for a declaration that she was no longer a Muslim.

In the proceedings today, her counsel, Aston Paiva, submitted his client was said to have been born a Muslim based on the assumption that her parents had a valid marriage and that her mother had converted to Islam, but records showed there was no marriage.

He said the shariah courts could only give a declaration when the person was no longer a Muslim but it could not make an order that the person was not a Muslim.

Selangor legal adviser Nik Suhaimi Nik Sulaiman argued that Rosliza was considered a Muslim based on her identity card and that the best way for her to get the declaration was to go to the shariah courts.

Mais was represented by a team of lawyers led by Zainul Rijal Abu Bakar.
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pilgrim
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by pilgrim »

Woman loses appeal to be declared non-Muslim
http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/catego ... on-muslim/

Court denies woman’s application to be recognised as non-Muslim
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/court-denies- ... 26064.html
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Pseudobabble »

Total insanity. As though you could compel a persons beliefs. Only true idiots think like that.
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"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


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Traveler8
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Traveler8 »

No compulsion for people from non-Muslim background. Since they claim this person is from Muslim family, none of this is really surprising.

That's just how things are done in many Muslim countries. It was the main reason why it was hard to convert Muslims to another religion. It would mean that their community would want to execute them, and nobody wants that.
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by binocular »

pilgrim wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:32 amSelangor legal adviser Nik Suhaimi Nik Sulaiman argued that Rosliza was considered a Muslim based on her identity card and that the best way for her to get the declaration was to go to the shariah courts.
But if she does go to the shariah courts, chances are they'll sentence her to death for apostasy, right?
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pilgrim
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by pilgrim »

If she tries to renounce her religion in the Syariah court, it will almost certainly fail. More likely she will be sentenced to a "re-education camp" . This impacts her whole life. Not being allowed to attend Dhamma talks or going to a temple is the least of her problems. It would be difficult for her to marry as any man who marries her will have to convert to Islam and must bring up their children as Muslims. She must fast during Ramadan or face the Syiarah court. I think she also cannot will her property to non-Muslims.

Basically her options of a "normal life" are to force herself to believe and integrate into the Muslim community or resign herself to being single.
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by DNS »

pilgrim wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:20 am Basically her options of a "normal life" are to force herself to believe and integrate into the Muslim community or resign herself to being single.
It sounds like a perfect example of the need for asylum, legal immigration to another nation. I know the U.S. offers refugee status/asylum to those facing religious persecution, if you can prove it, which she could do. However, that takes money (and time) of course to be able to migrate to another nation.
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by sentinel »

DNS wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:03 am
pilgrim wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:20 am Basically her options of a "normal life" are to force herself to believe and integrate into the Muslim community or resign herself to being single.
It sounds like a perfect example of the need for asylum, legal immigration to another nation. I know the U.S. offers refugee status/asylum to those facing religious persecution, if you can prove it, which she could do. However, that takes money (and time) of course to be able to migrate to another nation.
More than money and time , one needs an establishment of relationship such as relatives and friends . Adjustment to new environment and climate . Language barrier . Cultural differences . Etc etc .
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Bundokji »

The following is not meant to defend Islam because stupidity and wrong views are indefensible.

The notion "there is no compulsion is religion" and how it should be understood is a cause of disagreement between Muslim scholars. To argue whether Islam allows freedom of faith or not is a waste of time in my opinion.

Faith in a particular religion is a subjective experience. The practicle need to reveal it arises when religious law replaces civil law or being the main source of it. This is why i view the issue to be more related to the separation of religion and state (secularism) rather than investigating what a certain religion teaches.

For example, if this woman lived in a secular country, the need to go to court would not arise. She can marry whoever she wants using the civil court which does not give a shit about the religion of the two people getting married as long as getting married is what they want.

The main problem with Islam as i see it is that Muhammad was able to establish a nation/country and he introduced laws which what we call nowadays Sharia. This is why the issue of "there is no compulsion in religion" is a by-product of this bigger problem. Even the most radical Muslim scholars who claim that those who change their religion should be executed emphasize that this is only applicable to those who reveal or express their heresy trying to influence others.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sentinel
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by sentinel »

In country like Malaysia , existed two laws . Secular and Shariah .
Malaysia supposed to be considered as Secular nation . However , it has 13 states simultaneously also having Shariah courts functioning.
Now , the grey area is once a non Muslim embraces Islam , their children especially prior to 18 years old will have to follow their parents or either one whom converted to Islam . Unless , one of the parents Stop the other party from Secretly or "Illegally" smuggle their children to convert to Islam without anyone knowledge .
Then this type of tragedy will continue to happen .
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Bundokji
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Bundokji »

James Tan wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:02 am .
Then this type of tragedy will continue to happen .
I think this tragedy will continue to happen unless the country becomes fully secular. In a fully secular state, the issue of whether Islam allows freedom of religion or not becomes obsolete and unnecessary.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sentinel
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by sentinel »

I foresee No Future for non Muslim in Malaysia .
Not only that , in Indonesia and Brunei could be worse .
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bazzaman
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by bazzaman »

binocular wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:49 pm
But if she does go to the shariah courts, chances are they'll sentence her to death for apostasy, right?
No, there is no death penalty for apostasy in Malaysia. The two ultra-religious states tried to get such a law passed a few years ago; but there's no desire for it in the country as a whole.
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by User1249x »

James Tan wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:57 am I foresee No Future for non Muslim in Malaysia .
Not only that , in Indonesia and Brunei could be worse .
More info about this?
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Grigoris
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Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Grigoris »

ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.
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