Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
Post Reply
User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1489
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by pilgrim » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:32 am

Woman fails to get declaration she is Buddhist

PUTRAJAYA: A woman who claimed she was an illegitimate child born of a Muslim father and Buddhist mother, who has since passed away, lost her appeal to be declared a non-Muslim.

A Court of Appeal panel, comprising Umi Kalthum Abdul Majid, Vernon Ong Lam Kiat and Suraya Othman, today struck out Rosliza Ibrahim’s bid to quash the Shah Alam High Court’s decision on June 22, 2017 to dismiss her originating summons for a declaration that she was Buddhist and not a Muslim.

Umi, who chaired the panel, said there was no appealable error in the High Court judge’s decision.

Rosliza, 36, filed an originating summons in 2015 for a declaration that she was an illegitimate child born to a Buddhist mother, that she was not a Muslim and therefore the shariah courts had no jurisdiction over her.

She claimed she was raised a Buddhist by her mother and continues to profess Buddhism to this day.

She named the Selangor state government as respondent in her originating summons. The Selangor Islamic Religious Council (Mais) was admitted as an intervener.

The High Court, in its ruling, held that Rosliza was born a Muslim and that only the shariah courts had the power to decide on her application for a declaration that she was no longer a Muslim.

In the proceedings today, her counsel, Aston Paiva, submitted his client was said to have been born a Muslim based on the assumption that her parents had a valid marriage and that her mother had converted to Islam, but records showed there was no marriage.

He said the shariah courts could only give a declaration when the person was no longer a Muslim but it could not make an order that the person was not a Muslim.

Selangor legal adviser Nik Suhaimi Nik Sulaiman argued that Rosliza was considered a Muslim based on her identity card and that the best way for her to get the declaration was to go to the shariah courts.

Mais was represented by a team of lawyers led by Zainul Rijal Abu Bakar.

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1489
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by pilgrim » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:00 am

Woman loses appeal to be declared non-Muslim
http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/catego ... on-muslim/

Court denies woman’s application to be recognised as non-Muslim
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/court-denies- ... 26064.html

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Pseudobabble » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:08 am

Total insanity. As though you could compel a persons beliefs. Only true idiots think like that.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

Traveler8
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:14 am

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Traveler8 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:51 am

No compulsion for people from non-Muslim background. Since they claim this person is from Muslim family, none of this is really surprising.

That's just how things are done in many Muslim countries. It was the main reason why it was hard to convert Muslims to another religion. It would mean that their community would want to execute them, and nobody wants that.

User avatar
binocular
Posts: 5231
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by binocular » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:49 pm

pilgrim wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:32 am
Selangor legal adviser Nik Suhaimi Nik Sulaiman argued that Rosliza was considered a Muslim based on her identity card and that the best way for her to get the declaration was to go to the shariah courts.
But if she does go to the shariah courts, chances are they'll sentence her to death for apostasy, right?

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1489
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by pilgrim » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:20 am

If she tries to renounce her religion in the Syariah court, it will almost certainly fail. More likely she will be sentenced to a "re-education camp" . This impacts her whole life. Not being allowed to attend Dhamma talks or going to a temple is the least of her problems. It would be difficult for her to marry as any man who marries her will have to convert to Islam and must bring up their children as Muslims. She must fast during Ramadan or face the Syiarah court. I think she also cannot will her property to non-Muslims.

Basically her options of a "normal life" are to force herself to believe and integrate into the Muslim community or resign herself to being single.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11560
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by DNS » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:03 am

pilgrim wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:20 am
Basically her options of a "normal life" are to force herself to believe and integrate into the Muslim community or resign herself to being single.
It sounds like a perfect example of the need for asylum, legal immigration to another nation. I know the U.S. offers refugee status/asylum to those facing religious persecution, if you can prove it, which she could do. However, that takes money (and time) of course to be able to migrate to another nation.

James Tan
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by James Tan » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:25 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:03 am
pilgrim wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:20 am
Basically her options of a "normal life" are to force herself to believe and integrate into the Muslim community or resign herself to being single.
It sounds like a perfect example of the need for asylum, legal immigration to another nation. I know the U.S. offers refugee status/asylum to those facing religious persecution, if you can prove it, which she could do. However, that takes money (and time) of course to be able to migrate to another nation.
More than money and time , one needs an establishment of relationship such as relatives and friends . Adjustment to new environment and climate . Language barrier . Cultural differences . Etc etc .
:reading:

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Bundokji » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:42 am

The following is not meant to defend Islam because stupidity and wrong views are indefensible.

The notion "there is no compulsion is religion" and how it should be understood is a cause of disagreement between Muslim scholars. To argue whether Islam allows freedom of faith or not is a waste of time in my opinion.

Faith in a particular religion is a subjective experience. The practicle need to reveal it arises when religious law replaces civil law or being the main source of it. This is why i view the issue to be more related to the separation of religion and state (secularism) rather than investigating what a certain religion teaches.

For example, if this woman lived in a secular country, the need to go to court would not arise. She can marry whoever she wants using the civil court which does not give a shit about the religion of the two people getting married as long as getting married is what they want.

The main problem with Islam as i see it is that Muhammad was able to establish a nation/country and he introduced laws which what we call nowadays Sharia. This is why the issue of "there is no compulsion in religion" is a by-product of this bigger problem. Even the most radical Muslim scholars who claim that those who change their religion should be executed emphasize that this is only applicable to those who reveal or express their heresy trying to influence others.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

James Tan
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by James Tan » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:02 am

In country like Malaysia , existed two laws . Secular and Shariah .
Malaysia supposed to be considered as Secular nation . However , it has 13 states simultaneously also having Shariah courts functioning.
Now , the grey area is once a non Muslim embraces Islam , their children especially prior to 18 years old will have to follow their parents or either one whom converted to Islam . Unless , one of the parents Stop the other party from Secretly or "Illegally" smuggle their children to convert to Islam without anyone knowledge .
Then this type of tragedy will continue to happen .
:reading:

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Bundokji » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:16 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:02 am
.
Then this type of tragedy will continue to happen .
I think this tragedy will continue to happen unless the country becomes fully secular. In a fully secular state, the issue of whether Islam allows freedom of religion or not becomes obsolete and unnecessary.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

James Tan
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by James Tan » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:57 am

I foresee No Future for non Muslim in Malaysia .
Not only that , in Indonesia and Brunei could be worse .
:reading:

User avatar
bazzaman
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:49 am

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by bazzaman » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:57 am

binocular wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:49 pm

But if she does go to the shariah courts, chances are they'll sentence her to death for apostasy, right?
No, there is no death penalty for apostasy in Malaysia. The two ultra-religious states tried to get such a law passed a few years ago; but there's no desire for it in the country as a whole.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1046
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:07 am

James Tan wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:57 am
I foresee No Future for non Muslim in Malaysia .
Not only that , in Indonesia and Brunei could be worse .
More info about this?
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

User avatar
Grigoris
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:41 am

ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1489
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by pilgrim » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:03 am

Re the video above.

The Islam of the Champas are seen as degenerate by the rest of the Islamic world. Saudi and other Muslim nations are funding mosques, scholarships and organisations in Cambodia in order to bring them into the mainstream fold.
:focus:

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 981
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Islam - "There is no compulsion in religion", Yea, Right

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:11 am

i support a buddhist jihad
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mikenz66, TamHanhHi and 51 guests