All is one. Change my view.

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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mikenz66
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Re: All is one. Change my view.

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:21 pm

It's a nice article, but this comment is very important to consider when reading comments from those who are not necessarily experts on the doctrines that they are criticsising:
Greetings, I'm enjoying the article a great deal but one important question I have is, who is it that's proposing this idea "that we are all One?" What groups or individuals are you referring to? Do they have specific doctrines, beliefs and practices around this idea of Oneness? And are you representing them accurately? Being specific in this way seems important because right now your presentation of Oneness seems a bit cliche or stereotypical. In other words, if you are not more specific about who holds this view of Oneness and if you don't articulate their position at least somewhat accurately, then your presentation of Oneness seems more like a caricature, a straw-man, that you can then punch down.
Although I agree in general terms, I offer this passage as an example of using internal/external as an approach to seeing the not-self nature of phenomena:
And what is the earth element? The earth element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior earth element? Anything hard, solid, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior earth element. The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with proper understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you really see with proper understanding, you reject the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element.

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato#sc12
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Mike

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binocular
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Re: All is one. Change my view.

Post by binocular » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:46 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:21 pm
It's a nice article, but this comment is very important to consider when reading comments from those who are not necessarily experts on the doctrines that they are criticsising:
Greetings, I'm enjoying the article a great deal but one important question I have is, who is it that's proposing this idea "that we are all One?" What groups or individuals are you referring to? Do they have specific doctrines, beliefs and practices around this idea of Oneness? And are you representing them accurately? Being specific in this way seems important because right now your presentation of Oneness seems a bit cliche or stereotypical. In other words, if you are not more specific about who holds this view of Oneness and if you don't articulate their position at least somewhat accurately, then your presentation of Oneness seems more like a caricature, a straw-man, that you can then punch down.
Again, the aim of the article isn't to criticize specific doctrines about oneness by specific authors or schools, but to use some popular ideas about oneness (as people are most likely to encounter them) and show where they're wrong or problematic.

Someone who is an expert on a doctrine wouldn't criticize it to begin with, because an expert is necessarily also a proponent of it, in favor of it. Because an implicit belief in religions is that only a member of a religion can be an expert on that religion.

Your comment and the one you're quoting come from the perspective that there is such a thing as neutral, objective, unbiased criticism. It's not clear that such criticism is even possible -- no matter how much it is advocated for in schools.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: All is one. Change my view.

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:48 pm

That’s how I understand your range and your light.

But there is another realm that you don’t know or see. But I know it and see it. There is the realm named after the gods of streaming radiance. You passed away from there and were reborn here. You’ve dwelt here so long that you’ve forgotten about that, so you don’t know it or see it. But I know it and see it. So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you. There is the realm named after the gods replete with glory … the realm named after the gods of abundant fruit … the realm named after the Overlord, which you don’t know or see. But I know it and see it. So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you. Having directly known earth as earth, and having directly known that which does not fall within the scope of experience based on earth, I did not identify with earth, I did not identify regarding earth, I did not identify as earth, I did not identify ‘earth is mine’, I did not enjoy earth. So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you. Having directly known water … fire … air … creatures … gods … the Creator … Brahmā … the gods of streaming radiance … the gods replete with glory … the gods of abundant fruit … the Overlord … Having directly known all as all, and having directly known that which does not fall within the scope of experience based on all, I did not identify with all, I did not identify regarding all, I did not identify as all, I did not identify ‘all is mine’, I did not enjoy all. So Brahmā, I am not your equal in knowledge, still less your inferior. Rather, I know more than you.’

‘Well, good sir, if you have directly known that which is not within the scope of experience based on all, may your words not turn out to be void and hollow!

Consciousness that is invisible, infinite, radiant all round—that’s what is not within the scope of experience based on earth, water, fire, air, creatures, gods, the Creator, Brahmā, the gods of streaming radiance, the gods replete with glory, the gods of abundant fruit, the Overlord, and the all.

https://suttacentral.net/mn49/en/sujato

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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DNS
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Re: All is one. Change my view.

Post by DNS » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:45 am

In that article Thanissaro uses materialism to refute the "All is One" idea; ironically since Thanissaro is not a materialist.

One who follows the All is One philosophy would say those materialist arguments are caught in the delusion that the world is real. They would argue that the world we experience is illusion and the true ultimate reality is Oneness, which we cannot see (apparently until we become enlightened). The reason there are predators eating other beings is that they are still trapped in the illusion that this conventional reality is real and when they awaken, they see the the true ultimate (divine? perhaps pantheistic) reality on Oneness. The higher ultimate reality is not material, not this body (and thus those references to food and the body are inappropriate), but the spirit according to those who advocate Oneness.

I'm not an advocate of this philosophy, but I believe that might be one way they would respond to that article.

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Bundokji
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Re: All is one. Change my view.

Post by Bundokji » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:49 am

The article criticizes how the idea of oneness can go wrong, and to that extent, it can be useful. Nevertheless, it includes a lot of assumptions and language games to make his argument plausible.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

zan
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Re: All is one. Change my view.

Post by zan » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:14 pm

I think I agree with most of you.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

I do not actually hold this view but it seemed the least complicated way to post the thread: as a question in which posters could present a counter to a view. Had I explained my view and then asked for counters to a different view, at least some posters would have likely read it wrong or skimmed it and posted a reply assuming they were responding to the question when they were actually responding to my held view, not the one I was asking to be countered.

At best, explaining my view and the one I wanted to have countered would have been unnecessary, at worst convoluted. So I wrote in the simplest, most direct way possible.

I hope this makes sense!
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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