On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

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binocular
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On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:28 pm

How do you feel about being addressed with "Venerable"?

How do you feel about being addressed with "upasaka/upasika"?

How do you feel about being addressed with "Dear member of the sangha"?

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Sam Vara
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:00 pm

I've been called a good deal worse, especially in my capacity as a moderator. :smile:

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Kim OHara
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:31 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:00 pm
I've been called a good deal worse, especially in my capacity as a moderator. :smile:
+1

but -
"Venerable" is reserved for monks - that's not me.
"Upasaka" ... broadly a "lay follower" and I guess that's a good enough description for me, but more strictly https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... nd_Upasika one who has formally taken refuge, which I haven't, and keeps the five precepts, which I generally do. :juggling:

But I try to avoid labels as far as possible. They suggest a fixed "self", which I don't believe exists, and they over-simplify.

:coffee:
Kim

binocular
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:48 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:00 pm
I've been called a good deal worse, especially in my capacity as a moderator.
It's a novel experience for me that someone refers to me with "upasika".
I find that many things said to me by Buddhists may have as well been prefaced with something like, "you piece of plebeian trash". I'm not complaining, as I had gotten used to the direct and indirect negativity in interactions with Buddhists.
It's just really novel to quite distinctly not be addressed this way.

Something about one's self-worth as a (potential) practitioner of the Path.

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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:48 pm
It's a novel experience for me that someone refers to me with "upasika".
I find that many things said to me by Buddhists may have as well been prefaced with something like, "you piece of plebeian trash". I'm not complaining, as I had gotten used to the direct and indirect negativity in interactions with Buddhists.
It's just really novel to quite distinctly not be addressed this way.

Something about one's self-worth as a (potential) practitioner of the Path.
If you like it, hold out for "Star of the Sea, Queen of Heaven, Most Blessed Lady".

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Samana Johann 1
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:23 pm

Nyeat Nyom (pi: ñāti ñoma, "different" relatives, former parents, addressing of pabbajito / homeless toward householder),

when Atma Peap (I "ness") is adressed by de guṇa (benevolent one), log ta (ven. Grandfather), lok machas (Ven. Lord), or Preah Karuna (Lord of Compassion) three skillful things arise:

* mudita, sympathetic rejoice for the person doing giving into the Gems (when not doing in a situation my person could hardly be an image for such).
* a powerful pressure by conscious to be worthy the gift if accepting and powerful motivation to make the best out of the gift.
* and the knowing of the big load if not reaching the freedom from duty

And it's because one is either not worthy to be given or foolish ashamed because receiving a gift, pressured to correspond to the place given, that dislike arise.

In a society where certain status of beings is no more recognices but cut away for the sage of pseudo-liberality, the is no more way for them to go beyond. Why, because they are abstracted by any dircrimination, orientation and pressure as well as joy in working on. They have become conceit full cull hen by their own effort, on own accord, the everbound slaves of mara.
http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html wrote:The King of Death

We live like a chicken who doesn't know what's going on. In the morning it takes its baby chicks out to scratch for food. In the evening, it goes back to sleep in the coop. The next morning it goes out to look for food again. Its owner scatters rice for it to eat every day, but it doesn't know why its owner is feeding it. The chicken and its owner are thinking in very different ways.

The owner is thinking, "How much does the chicken weigh?" The chicken, though, is engrossed in the food. When the owner picks it up to heft its weight, it thinks the owner is showing affection.

We too don't know what's going on: where we come from, how many more years we'll live, where we'll go, who will take us there. We don't know this at all.

The King of Death is like the owner of the chicken. We don't know when he'll catch up with us, for we're engrossed — engrossed in sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas. We have no sense that we're growing older. We have no sense of enough.
Most hard and problematic is when conventional form hardly conflict with Dhamma, (ideal) such as when being venerated and served by formal Bhikkhus, Theras... thats really hard. And to keep their appearance proper for their childs, and to keep those able to trace things on ideal level, to do not confuse a good societies regulation, the best way is to stay away form communities used to homie-hood, communist or post moder societies since their foolish pride and refuge in equal is not like the danger of one thinking "I am higher", compare able with one rynning around with a gun, or "I am lower", compare able with a person running around with a gun turned toward to his head, but people running around with nuclear bombs bound around their body, destroying them selfes and all around.

So make yourself proper to proper adressings in each relation and do not give fools the way to fall in traps by not giving them the change to let them know where you are.

It's really not easy for you, not at all, to make the first step and take refuge outward conceit.

People hate to fall in debt, but it is by making debts toward the right, that debts bind on to Nibbana and not Mara. It's not possible without food, debts. Once fallen into householder-equanimity, grave ignorance, your ways are for liberation are closed up for very long, long time. Aging, sickness death and another many, many painful lives will go on meanwhile.

If someone estimated as member of the Sangha would give only the slightes approve of your ways here as comics and cross leged dwelling simsons, he would really damage not only the monastic disciples but also destroy the reputation of the devoted lay follow ship.

You have to become aware of what you are doing here, if seeking for the welfare for both, yours and all others, monks an lay people and a resisting refuge in this world.

Or simply do not put Dhamma at the top of your enjoyments, call it pepsi not coca cola, or cola, as long refuge is not taken.

99,5 people are of moha, raga or dose carita. They are not able to figue out but follow their leade. And as a "leader" you have to think deeply if you are really one of 0,5%or just another bond sheep and better stick on the rules of approach of the elders till you know for sure.

When my person hears of lay people, having adressed monks in most proper and honorable way, being rebuked by them, we don't use such, because we ard all equal, such is really the end of the story, or what is song by the lost: we don't need no education... staying really just another brick in a pink wall for a long long time. A chicken of death, Mara, having chrated you by huging you.

You know, someone having profane the parisa, can not easy ordain, yet today its no more easy to understand of what it actually means by profane since living in a world of strong view, devoted to maras and devadattas.

Degenerated will praise your ways here and blame those acting proper. That is why you need to look for people having changed their ancestor ship to have right orientation.

And btw. No one here active for now is adressed by "How do you feel about being addressed with "Dear member of the sangha"" and if wise, should not feel like being adressed.

This place is void of the Sangha of Buddhas monastic disciples, on one hand on an ideal and on the other or a conventional level, profane, and not easy to get refuge again, or better for the first time. It has been corrupted a long time, this family.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:14 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:28 pm
How do you feel about being addressed with "upasaka/upasika"?
It's pretentious and unnecessary. I also don't like Nyom.
Anyone who uses those words in everyday conversation needs to be taken down a peg or two.
Just like Ajahns who insist on being called Ajahn. Whenver I come across one of those, in all my talks with them I always call them Bhante, and it really annoys them. Ha!

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Samana Johann 1
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:57 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:14 am
binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:28 pm
How do you feel about being addressed with "upasaka/upasika"?
It's pretentious and unnecessary. I also don't like Nyom.
Anyone who uses those words in everyday conversation needs to be taken down a peg or two.
Just like Ajahns who insist on being called Ajahn. Whenver I come across one of those, in all my talks with them I always call them Bhante, and it really annoys them. Ha!
Because you are not and not even willing to become a by- listener, attending follower,. Tell me if wrong. As for calling you like mother and father (by Nyom), Nyom also rejects, having no faith in kamma and rebirth.

An in regard of Ajahn Chah, you would hate him adressing you personally. As for the Ajahns wh insitst be called Ajahns, has a reason: because they are no, just using the Tripple Gems for their lifelihood.

You never met disciples of the Buddha. Even if standing in front of you, Nyom would tend to fools.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

binocular
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:38 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:14 am
It's pretentious and unnecessary.
Why? Are you not an upasaka, or don't want to be one?
I also don't like Nyom.
In the suttas, householders are routinely addressed with "householder".
Anyone who uses those words in everyday conversation needs to be taken down a peg or two.
When, then, do you think it is appropriate to use those words?

binocular
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:47 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 pm
If you like it, hold out for "Star of the Sea, Queen of Heaven, Most Blessed Lady".
Oh, come on, I'm not talking about anything so egregious!

Being adressed in a respectful way certainly inclines me to take myself, the other person, and the topic of conversation more seriously.
A lay practitioner not wanting to be addressed with upasaka/upasika is practicing false humility, or has some serious issues to resolve, or both.

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Sam Vara
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:03 am

binocular wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:47 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:07 pm
If you like it, hold out for "Star of the Sea, Queen of Heaven, Most Blessed Lady".
Oh, come on, I'm not talking about anything so egregious!

Being adressed in a respectful way certainly inclines me to take myself, the other person, and the topic of conversation more seriously.
A lay practitioner not wanting to be addressed with upasaka/upasika is practicing false humility, or has some serious issues to resolve, or both.
It was a joke, Upasika binocular. :tongue:

binocular
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Re: On venerables, upasakas, upasikas, and those not like that

Post by binocular » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:08 am

I understood it was a joke. Why anyone would make it, or why you made it here in this thread, is more pertinent.

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