Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

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Disciple
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Disciple » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:41 pm

manas wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:36 pm

I don't see why someone can't participate in both Forums at once. Sectarianism gives me spiritual indigestion. I'm more interested in improving myself, than in clinging to the notion that "Only this Path is correct, all others are false (or misleading, incomplete, distorted etc). I'm leaning more nowadays, towards "What when I do it, will be for my long term welfare and happiness?", and if a Tibetan Monk or Lama can help with that, so be it. There are good practitioners in both Theravada and Tibatan Buddhism. A case in point, is this truly inspiring Dharma talk by the late Lama Yeshe. This is powerful, vibrant, alive. Well worth a listen.
Read what I said further on in this thread.

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manas
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by manas » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:47 pm

Disciple wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:41 pm
manas wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:36 pm

I don't see why someone can't participate in both Forums at once. Sectarianism gives me spiritual indigestion. I'm more interested in improving myself, than in clinging to the notion that "Only this Path is correct, all others are false (or misleading, incomplete, distorted etc). I'm leaning more nowadays, towards "What when I do it, will be for my long term welfare and happiness?", and if a Tibetan Monk or Lama can help with that, so be it. There are good practitioners in both Theravada and Tibatan Buddhism. A case in point, is this truly inspiring Dharma talk by the late Lama Yeshe. This is powerful, vibrant, alive. Well worth a listen.
Read what I said further on in this thread.
I went and found it, ok sorry if I misconstrued your actual position.
:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

alan
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:45 am

I'll stick with my original statement.
Anyone who can tell me why it is wrong (without misquoting), do so now.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 am

alan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:13 am
Aslo, I did not deny rebirth. But nowhere did the Buddha say he could determine past lives with anything other than basic needs. And nowhere did he say there is a way to find a specific rebirth.
Sankhārupapattisutta MN 120

‘aho vatāhaṃ kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā khattiyamahāsālānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjeyyan’ti. So taṃ cittaṃ dahati, taṃ cittaṃ adhiṭṭhāti, taṃ cittaṃ bhāveti. Tassa te saṅkhārā ca vihārā ca evaṃ bhāvitā evaṃ bahulīkatā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattanti. Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo ayaṃ paṭipadā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattati. Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu saddhāya samannāgato hoti, sīlena samannāgato hoti, sutena samannāgato hoti, cāgena samannāgato hoti, paññāya samannāgato hoti. ‘aho vatāhaṃ kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā brāhmaṇamahāsālānaṃ … pe … ’ gahapatimahāsālānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjeyyan’ti. So taṃ cittaṃ dahati, taṃ cittaṃ adhiṭṭhāti, taṃ cittaṃ bhāveti. Tassa te saṅkhārā ca vihārā ca evaṃ bhāvitā evaṃ bahulīkatā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattanti. Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo ayaṃ paṭipadā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattati.

Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu possesses faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom. He thinks: ‘Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of well-to-do nobles!’ He fixes his mind on that, resolves upon it, develops it. These aspirations and this abiding of his, thus developed and cultivated, lead to his reappearance there. This, bhikkhus, is the path, the way that leads to reappearance there.

[...]

Again, a bhikkhu possesses faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom. He thinks: ‘Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of well-to-do brahmins!…in the company of well-to-do householders!’ He fixes his mind on that, resolves upon it, develops it. These aspirations and this abiding of his, thus developed and cultivated, lead to his reappearance there. This, bhikkhus, is the path, the way that leads to reappearance there.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

alan
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:50 am

Thank you for proving my point.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:03 am

alan wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:50 am
Thank you for proving my point.
What is this? Some kind of childish thing to say?

Only children say this sort of thing in a conversation. The Buddhavacana clearly indicates directed rebirth.

"Thank you for proving my point". Oh dear.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:06 am

Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo ayaṃ paṭipadā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattati.
This is the path and the practice that leads to rebirth there. (Ven Sujato translation)

Where?

Tassa te saṅkhārā ca vihārā ca evaṃ bhāvitā evaṃ bahulīkatā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattanti.
Those choices and meditations of theirs, developed and cultivated like this, lead to rebirth there. [i.e. wherever they want to go]

The sutta is very extensive, exhaustively listing various places one can attain birth in this way.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

alan
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by alan » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:49 am

Name the Sutta which says we can be reborn in a place or time or our choice.
Name the one which says it is possible to determine the rebirth place of others.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:17 am

Name the Sutta which says we can be reborn in a place or time or our choice.
I literally just did. But I suppose I can copy and paste the information from above so that it's down here too.

Sankhārupapattisutta MN 120
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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tellyontellyon
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by tellyontellyon » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:04 am

I practice Tibetan Buddhism but I also like the teachings from the Theravada forest tradition. I find there is more similarity than you might realise. The skillful means can seem more elaborate at times in Tibetan Buddhism, but it is more a matter of style and emphasis. There has been ignorance on both sides.

I don't know if this is quite relevant, but this talk by Ajahn Amaro goes a little way in explaining the development of the Mahayana approach, from a Theravada point of view. He also shows how concepts that seem to belong in Mahayana are in Theravada too.

Between Arahant and Bodhisattva:
http://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-fij83-26912c1

I think you might need to download an app to hear the talk, otherwise you can probably find the same talk on the Amaravati website, there is a section of audio teachings. The talk was on 25th April 2017.

Edit: Here it is:
https://www.amaravati.org/audio/between ... dhisattva/
“To dare is to lose one's footing momentarily. Not to dare is to lose oneself.”
― Søren Kierkegaard

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Aloka
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Aloka » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:46 pm

.

There's a transcript of Ajahn Amaro's talk on the 'Lion's Roar' website.


https://www.lionsroar.com/between-arhat ... dhisattva/


:anjali:


.

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Grigoris
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:43 pm

alan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:13 am
Aslo, I did not deny rebirth. But nowhere did the Buddha say he could determine past lives with anything other than basic needs. And nowhere did he say there is a way to find a specific rebirth.
You should look up the term "inferential error" before accusing me.
In all the Sutta on Kamma the Buddha teaches which actions lead to which rebirths. If you couple this with the role that habit plays in rebirth and the role of the rebirth linking consciousness plus the notion that a stream-enterer has at most seven lifetimes before they achieve Nibanna, well... I think there is ample evidence in the Sutta and Abhidhamma for our ability to influence our next incarnation.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by ToVincent » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:44 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:17 am


Sankhārupapattisutta MN 120

MN 120 Saïkhàruppatti-sutta
The Saïkhàruppatti-sutta, the “discourse on re-arising [in a particular way by means
of an] aspiration”, describes how an aspiration can influence the mode of one's rebirth.
A discourse in the Madhyama-àgama takes up the same topic, although its mode of presentation is different to such an extent that these two discourses do not seem to be
“parallels” properly speaking.

The treatment given in these two discourses differs not only in regard to the
range of rebirth modes taken into account, but also about the principle responsible for
such rebirth. While the Madhyama-āgama discourse relates rebirth in a particular realm
to having developed the corresponding meditative attainment, the Majjhima-nikāya
version’s exposition centres on the idea of being reborn through the power of an aspiration, based on a set of qualities that do not mention the development of concentration.

Analayo

____

And NO, Lamaism is not Buddhism. And Tibetans are not such a "nice peaceful" oppressed people. Read the history of both (shamanic tantric lamaism, and the ruthless episodes of Tibetan history).
.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by ToVincent » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:15 pm

Tibetan "buddhism" is just a somewhat "buddhism", perverted with Bon.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bon-Tibetan-religion
.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Grigoris
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:36 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:15 pm
Tibetan "buddhism" is just a somewhat "buddhism", perverted with Bon.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bon-Tibetan-religion
.
.
.
Ummmmm... That is not what the article says.

BTW,have you ever traveled to countries where Theravada is the official religion? Did you notice any syncretism going on there? Just a little?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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