Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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Grigoris
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:32 am

Disciple wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:28 am
alan wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:51 am
So. I've learned at least one thing from this: There is such a thing called called Bon.
But, I don't care. Because it seems to be completely ridiculous.
Just like the idea that there could be a child lama.

There could not be a Child Lama, right?
In the Suttas, nothing like that was ever said.
Tibetan invention.

:coffee:
And Nepai, Bhutanese, Mongolian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Laos, Thailand, Cambodian and Indian... Possibly also would have been found in Sri Lanka in the Abhayagiri and Jetavana traditions, and in Burma in the Ari Gaing but these have unfortunately been wiped out. I mention all these because they all had/have Vajrayana traditions which may (or may not) have believed (or do believe) in a type of tulku system.

But then again Theravada is a Indian invention arising from a split from the second Buddhist Council by the Sthavirya sect, which then gave rise to the Vibhajjavāda and then the Tāmraparnīya who later called themselves Theravāda so... The fact that it is an innovation, does not mean it is legitimate. Unless you claim that all innovation/invention is illegitimate in which case...

And, in closing, current Theravada emphasis on Mindfulness and Insight techniques is a post-colonial innovation/reformation anyway.

So how far are you willing to take it?

Something about people in glass houses?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:27 am

grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:32 am
Disciple wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:28 am
alan wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:51 am
So. I've learned at least one thing from this: There is such a thing called called Bon.
But, I don't care. Because it seems to be completely ridiculous.
Just like the idea that there could be a child lama.

There could not be a Child Lama, right?
In the Suttas, nothing like that was ever said.
Tibetan invention.

:coffee:
And Nepai, Bhutanese, Mongolian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Laos, Thailand, Cambodian and Indian... Possibly also would have been found in Sri Lanka in the Abhayagiri and Jetavana traditions, and in Burma in the Ari Gaing but these have unfortunately been wiped out. I mention all these because they all had/have Vajrayana traditions which may (or may not) have believed (or do believe) in a type of tulku system.

But then again Theravada is a Indian invention arising from a split from the second Buddhist Council by the Sthavirya sect, which then gave rise to the Vibhajjavāda and then the Tāmraparnīya who later called themselves Theravāda so... The fact that it is an innovation, does not mean it is legitimate. Unless you claim that all innovation/invention is illegitimate in which case...

And, in closing, current Theravada emphasis on Mindfulness and Insight techniques is a post-colonial innovation/reformation anyway.

So how far are you willing to take it?

Something about people in glass houses?
Factually speaking, tulkuism does seem to be a Tibetan invention. This is generally accepted as such. In fact, throughout Tibetan history, there have been many protestations both within and without the monasteries about it not being an exact science, in fact, no science. There are many tulkus who have claimed that the powers that be made mistakes declaring their own tulkuship, factual. From my perspective, it seems more like a political ploy that was instituted not unlike 'sainthood', in the Catholic church, both highly dubious and not really necessary except as a marketing strategy by the institutions for their own continuity. It has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught and is seen from a non-Tibetan POV as a distraction to the teachings. Of course, if you want to defend it and hold it up as something special, you may. You will probably not get much support on this forum, for better or worse.

Satipatthana is not a post colonial fad. If not for westerners, Vipassana would have little recognition outside of Asia apart from its meaning, insight. The Satipatthana sutta is a basic sutta for Theravada along with many others. The question of legitimacy in Theravada is not a question in the Buddhist world. Much of the Vajrayana essential teachings are derived from it whatever the names that are attached to them today. Tibetan tradition has piled on so much 'stuff' to the Buddha's original teaching that the complications from it are exceedingly vast. This is not to say it is invalid or worthless for a practicing Buddhist. I don't see any way to reconcile the two movements. It is like two different languages that have a shared history which has undergone mutations over time.

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Grigoris
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:49 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:27 am
Factually speaking, tulkuism does seem to be a Tibetan invention.
Again: we cannot know for sure if it is a Tibetan invention or a Vajrayana practice in general.
In fact, throughout Tibetan history, there have been many protestations both within and without the monasteries about it not being an exact science, in fact, no science.
Generally speaking: Buddhism is not a science.
There are many tulkus who have claimed that the powers that be made mistakes declaring their own tulkuship, factual.
I am not going to deny that one.
From my perspective, it seems more like a political ploy that was instituted not unlike 'sainthood', in the Catholic church, both highly dubious and not really necessary except as a marketing strategy by the institutions for their own continuity. It has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught and is seen from a non-Tibetan POV as a distraction to the teachings.

Of course, if you want to defend it and hold it up as something special, you may. You will probably not get much support on this forum, for better or worse.
I am not here for support. I am here to inform. What people do with the information is their business.
Satipatthana is not a post colonial fad...The Satipatthana sutta is a basic sutta for Theravada along with many others.
Indeed. But I never questioned that. But you have to admit that the current emphasis on the particular Sutta is a "post-colonial fad" (your words, not mine).
The question of legitimacy in Theravada is not a question in the Buddhist world.
Where did I question the legitimacy of Theravada? Red herring, much?
Much of the Vajrayana essential teachings are derived from it whatever the names that are attached to them today.
Evidence? Because, historically speaking, the oldest existing Pali text is as old as the oldest existing Sanskrit text. It is just as legitimate (historically speaking) to claim that the opposite is true.
Tibetan tradition has piled on so much 'stuff' to the Buddha's original teaching that the complications from it are exceedingly vast.
This is an opinion, right?
This is not to say it is invalid or worthless for a practicing Buddhist.
Nice of you to give it the "thumbs-up", not that it needed to be validated by you, but nice of you nonetheless! :smile:
I don't see any way to reconcile the two movements.
I do (as do my teachers, and their teachers, and ad nauseum...) but that is a whole other discussion. ;)
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:53 pm

what unites us is greater than what separates us

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Grigoris
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:43 am

Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:31 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:53 pm
what unites us is greater than what separates us

:anjali:
I agree 100%.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 778
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:26 pm

grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:31 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:53 pm
what unites us is greater than what separates us

:anjali:
I agree 100%.
Basic points unifying Theravāda and Mahāyāna

9 - We admit that in different countries there are differences regarding Buddhist beliefs and practices. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.

10 - We admit that in different countries there are differences with regard to the ways of life of Buddhist monks, popular Buddhist beliefs and practices, rites and rituals, ceremonies, customs and habits. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_poi ... 1y%C4%81na

this question about "Child Lama", can be explained with this item 9
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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