Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
Justsit
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Justsit » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:44 am

Aloka wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:35 pm
The Golden Child is a 1986 American fantasy comedy film directed by Michael Ritchie and starring Eddie Murphy as Chandler Jarrell, who is informed that he is "The Chosen One" and is destined to save "The Golden Child", the savior of all humankind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Child
"Kundun" tells the story of the early life of the 14th (current) Dalai Lama. As such, it's a bit more realistic; not a comedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFm8oP9c9Hs

alan
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by alan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:04 am

Upeksha: Both points you try to make are incorrect. You are inferring things that are not reasonable.
The example about the war in Sri Lanka, for instance, has no logic

alan
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by alan » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:13 am

Aslo, I did not deny rebirth. But nowhere did the Buddha say he could determine past lives with anything other than basic needs. And nowhere did he say there is a way to find a specific rebirth.
You should look up the term "inferential error" before accusing me.

Saengnapha
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:39 am

Almost 30 years ago, I met and befriended a very high ranking lama who shall remain nameless. He was head of over 400 monasteries. One night in Bangkok, over dinner with some friends, I asked him about the tulku thing, his in particular. He told me that in his case, they simply made a mistake! He didn't feel any of it was true for him, but he did have an overwhelming loyalty to those who depended on him. He was a curious case of dichotomy, self-indulgent, and devoted to his role as a leader.

Upeksha
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Upeksha » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:31 am

alan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:04 am
Upeksha: Both points you try to make are incorrect. You are inferring things that are not reasonable.
The example about the war in Sri Lanka, for instance, has no logic
I am precisely trying to demonstrate that - I actually wrote: "a straight up inferential error"!

And my point is simply that the OP proposition: "Child lama equals Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhist" is similarly devoid of logical coherency.

Please read my posts more carefully.

Upeksha
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Upeksha » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:35 am

alan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:13 am
Aslo, I did not deny rebirth. But nowhere did the Buddha say he could determine past lives with anything other than basic needs. And nowhere did he say there is a way to find a specific rebirth.
You should look up the term "inferential error" before accusing me.
Well, you've been asked repeatedly on this thread (not by me) to offer some kind of argument for your key assertion. In the complete absence of this, one can only take your initial statement on face value - and it is indeed logically incoherent.

If you want to take the time to make a more considered case, I'm happy and open to hear you out.

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Aloka
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Aloka » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:21 am

Justsit wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:44 am
Aloka wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:35 pm
The Golden Child is a 1986 American fantasy comedy film directed by Michael Ritchie and starring Eddie Murphy as Chandler Jarrell, who is informed that he is "The Chosen One" and is destined to save "The Golden Child", the savior of all humankind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Child
"Kundun" tells the story of the early life of the 14th (current) Dalai Lama. As such, it's a bit more realistic; not a comedy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFm8oP9c9Hs
I used to be involved with Tibetan Buddhism myself and saw that movie years ago.

I've also read "The Story of Tibet - conversations with the Dalai Lama" by Thomas Laird. It tells, amongst other things, about the Gelugpa sect acquiring political and military power and their leaders (the Dalai lamas) becoming rulers of Tibet.

.

Disciple
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Disciple » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:50 pm

Aloka wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:21 am

I used to be involved with Tibetan Buddhism myself and saw that movie years ago.

I've also read "The Story of Tibet - conversations with the Dalai Lama" by Thomas Laird. It tells, amongst other things, about the Gelugpa sect acquiring political and military power and their leaders (the Dalai lamas) becoming rulers of Tibet.

.
What made you leave tibetan buddhism?

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Aloka
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Aloka » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:57 pm

Disciple wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:50 pm

What made you leave tibetan buddhism?
Its personal.....and I also became more interested in reading the suttas and in the teachings of the lineage of Ajahn Chah.


:anjali:

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manas
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by manas » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:36 pm

Disciple wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:08 pm
Upeksha wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:05 pm
Disciple wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:47 pm

There are much more profound critiques out there regarding Lamaism but thank you.
There sure are. As I mentioned in an earlier post, all of them were written in the 19th century when there was virtually no genuine knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism. The very word "Lamaism" is rooted in that period of almost total ignorance. To sit here on a Buddhist forum in the 21st century and perpetrate that level of ignorance is pretty shameful.
I think you might be better off on dharmawheel.
I don't see why someone can't participate in both Forums at once. Sectarianism gives me spiritual indigestion. I'm more interested in improving myself, than in clinging to the notion that "Only this Path is correct, all others are false (or misleading, incomplete, distorted etc). I'm leaning more nowadays, towards "What when I do it, will be for my long term welfare and happiness?", and if a Tibetan Monk or Lama can help with that, so be it. There are good practitioners in both Theravada and Tibatan Buddhism. A case in point, is this truly inspiring Dharma talk by the late Lama Yeshe. This is powerful, vibrant, alive. Well worth a listen.
Drinking the nourishment,
the flavor,
of seclusion & calm,
one is freed from evil, devoid
of distress,
refreshed with the nourishment
of rapture in the Dhamma.

- Dhp 205

Disciple
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Disciple » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:41 pm

manas wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:36 pm

I don't see why someone can't participate in both Forums at once. Sectarianism gives me spiritual indigestion. I'm more interested in improving myself, than in clinging to the notion that "Only this Path is correct, all others are false (or misleading, incomplete, distorted etc). I'm leaning more nowadays, towards "What when I do it, will be for my long term welfare and happiness?", and if a Tibetan Monk or Lama can help with that, so be it. There are good practitioners in both Theravada and Tibatan Buddhism. A case in point, is this truly inspiring Dharma talk by the late Lama Yeshe. This is powerful, vibrant, alive. Well worth a listen.
Read what I said further on in this thread.

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manas
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by manas » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:47 pm

Disciple wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:41 pm
manas wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:36 pm

I don't see why someone can't participate in both Forums at once. Sectarianism gives me spiritual indigestion. I'm more interested in improving myself, than in clinging to the notion that "Only this Path is correct, all others are false (or misleading, incomplete, distorted etc). I'm leaning more nowadays, towards "What when I do it, will be for my long term welfare and happiness?", and if a Tibetan Monk or Lama can help with that, so be it. There are good practitioners in both Theravada and Tibatan Buddhism. A case in point, is this truly inspiring Dharma talk by the late Lama Yeshe. This is powerful, vibrant, alive. Well worth a listen.
Read what I said further on in this thread.
I went and found it, ok sorry if I misconstrued your actual position.
:anjali:
Drinking the nourishment,
the flavor,
of seclusion & calm,
one is freed from evil, devoid
of distress,
refreshed with the nourishment
of rapture in the Dhamma.

- Dhp 205

alan
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Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:45 am

I'll stick with my original statement.
Anyone who can tell me why it is wrong (without misquoting), do so now.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:02 am

alan wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:13 am
Aslo, I did not deny rebirth. But nowhere did the Buddha say he could determine past lives with anything other than basic needs. And nowhere did he say there is a way to find a specific rebirth.
Sankhārupapattisutta MN 120

‘aho vatāhaṃ kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā khattiyamahāsālānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjeyyan’ti. So taṃ cittaṃ dahati, taṃ cittaṃ adhiṭṭhāti, taṃ cittaṃ bhāveti. Tassa te saṅkhārā ca vihārā ca evaṃ bhāvitā evaṃ bahulīkatā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattanti. Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo ayaṃ paṭipadā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattati. Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu saddhāya samannāgato hoti, sīlena samannāgato hoti, sutena samannāgato hoti, cāgena samannāgato hoti, paññāya samannāgato hoti. ‘aho vatāhaṃ kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā brāhmaṇamahāsālānaṃ … pe … ’ gahapatimahāsālānaṃ sahabyataṃ upapajjeyyan’ti. So taṃ cittaṃ dahati, taṃ cittaṃ adhiṭṭhāti, taṃ cittaṃ bhāveti. Tassa te saṅkhārā ca vihārā ca evaṃ bhāvitā evaṃ bahulīkatā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattanti. Ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo ayaṃ paṭipadā tatrupapattiyā saṃvattati.

Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu possesses faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom. He thinks: ‘Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of well-to-do nobles!’ He fixes his mind on that, resolves upon it, develops it. These aspirations and this abiding of his, thus developed and cultivated, lead to his reappearance there. This, bhikkhus, is the path, the way that leads to reappearance there.

[...]

Again, a bhikkhu possesses faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom. He thinks: ‘Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of well-to-do brahmins!…in the company of well-to-do householders!’ He fixes his mind on that, resolves upon it, develops it. These aspirations and this abiding of his, thus developed and cultivated, lead to his reappearance there. This, bhikkhus, is the path, the way that leads to reappearance there.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

alan
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Re: Child Lama. I think it is ridiculous.

Post by alan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:50 am

Thank you for proving my point.

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