Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

If you had to kill in self defense or to save others would you?

Yes
19
54%
No
16
46%
 
Total votes: 35

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2528
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:55 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:51 pm
Bodily misconduct is performing unwholesome bodily action, which as described in MN 9 and AN 10.176 (which you just quoted), includes killing.
This is arguing around in circles because it is making implicit assumptions about the meaning of words. If I am a parent & must protect my child from a murderer, surely this is not unwholesome. At least to me, it sounds insane to a reasonable person that a parent or person acting in self defense is acting in an unwholesome manner. Sorry, but all you seem to be offering to the thread is unreflective fundamentalism.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 790
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:57 pm

It's mixed:
Ariyamagga Sutta wrote: And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious… a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious… a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious.… He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world.… There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts.… He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2528
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:59 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:57 pm
It's mixed:
I must start work now but it appears you have now changed your view. :roll:

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 790
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:00 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:25 pm
Intentionally killing is always unwholesome, or at best mixed kamma.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2528
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:07 am

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:00 pm
...at best mixed kamma.
So are all worldly pursuits according to Buddhism that are imbued with attachment, such as having a family. You have not really posted anything from the Pali suttas that condemns killing in self-defense. The posts have been mere generalisations & fundamentalist rhetoric. I stand by my opinion that the Buddha did not seek to 'micro-manage' the lives of ordinary people; particularly in a manner to impair their common sense.

SarathW
Posts: 9805
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:41 am

The question in OP is similar to the following riddle.

Scenario: You’re on a ship. The ship is sinking. There is an uninhabited island a few miles away, but the waters are shark-infested. You get in the only lifeboat, and 6 people can fit in the life boat with you. Who will you save?
◾CEO, male, 40 years old
◾Professional wrestler, male, 28
◾Farmer, male, 46
◾Surfer, male, 21
◾Police Officer, male, 39
◾Homemaker, female, 35
◾Nurse, male, 40
◾Doctor, female, 62
◾Comedian, male, 35
◾Handicapped boy, male, 8
◾Pregnant teenager, female, 17
◾Lawyer, female, 36
◾Buddhist Monk, male, 29

https://rachelshae.wordpress.com/2010/1 ... -you-save/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 790
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Nicolas » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:07 am
[...]
Uposatha Sutta (Ud 5.5) wrote: Just as the ocean is stable and does not overstep its tideline; in the same way, my disciples do not—even for the sake of their lives—overstep the training rules I have formulated for them.
Kakacūpama Sutta (MN 21) wrote: Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: ‘Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of goodwill, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with goodwill and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with goodwill—abundant, enlarged, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.’ That’s how you should train yourselves.
The Buddha would never intentionally kill for any reason, and would never encourage anyone to kill either.

One might say "but these are teachings for monastics", to which I might reply: Dhamma is Dhamma, kamma is kamma, be it monastic or lay person. (In another topic, someone recently quoted Ajahn Sucitto: "Your citta doesn't know whether you're a monk or a lay person".) There is cause and effect. If one intentionally kills, at least a portion of this action is unwholesome/dark kamma, and that will lead to a result with its share of unpleasantness. It's not a matter of "should" or "should not" or micro-managing, but about the way things are, the law of kamma, actions having their consequences.

It's best to emulate Buddhas and arahants. I'm not saying it's easy.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2528
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 am

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:13 am
One might say "but these are teachings for monastics", to which I might reply: Dhamma is Dhamma, kamma is kamma, be it monastic or lay person. (In another topic, someone recently quoted Ajahn Sucitto: "Your citta doesn't know whether you're a monk or a lay person".) There is cause and effect. If one intentionally kills, at least a portion of this action is unwholesome/dark kamma, and that will lead to a result with its share of unpleasantness. It's not a matter of "should" or "should not" or micro-managing, but about the way things are, the law of kamma, actions having their consequences.

It's best to emulate Buddhas and arahants. I'm not saying it's easy.
Sorry but this does not appear related to Buddhism because Buddhist does not appear to teach lay people to emulate arahants. Also, arahants appear to not do this either. When you actually emulate an arahant, you probably won't be posting the way you are posting. Why don't we change the topic to sex & celibacy & lets see how your arahant emulation fairs? For some reason, since killing is generally a non-issue, I get the impression some Western Buddhists engage in self-sanctification by speaking fundamentalist words about non-killing.

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:12 am

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones reflects thus: 'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning the taking of life — abstain from the taking of life. They dwell with their rod laid down, their knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning the taking of life — abstain from the taking of life. I dwell with my rod laid down, my knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2528
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:29 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:12 am
I dwell with my rod laid down, my knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed.
Uposatha is practised once per month. Regardless, the Buddha-Dhamma does not teach Buddhist laypeople to emulate arahants for their entire lives.
As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning uncelibacy — live a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning uncelibacy :strawman: :jedi: — live a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed.
Change the subject to sex, drugs or not using money & watch how quickly the sanctity disappears. I remember I attended a Mahayana ceremony once, where everyone was given a Tibetan name & certificate of refuge based in taking the 1st precept of non-killing. It is ironic that his one preceptor lama is now on the official list of Buddhist sexual-misconduct predators. The lama only believed in the 1st precept, based on his actions. :roll:

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:42 am

uposatha is supposed to be practiced roughly four times a month, with each quarter phase of the moon. it's just funny because you are so eager to debate and you said something wasnt taught that is, verbatim. persistence like that can be very useful if directed rightly.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:07 am

And how, householders, are there three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone kills living beings; he is murderous, bloody-handed, given to blows and violence, merciless to living beings.

So, householders, it is by reason of such conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, by reason of such unrighteous conduct that some beings here on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn41/10.1-10.198

When asked if there was anything whose killing he approved of, the Buddha answered that there was only one thing: anger. In no recorded instance did he approve of killing any living being at all. When one of his monks went to an executioner and told the man to kill his victims compassionately, with one blow, rather than torturing them, the Buddha expelled the monk from the Sangha, on the grounds that even the recommendation to kill compassionately is still a recommendation to kill — something he would never condone. If a monk was physically attacked, the Buddha allowed him to strike back in self-defense, but never with the intention to kill.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ssage.html
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 790
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Nicolas » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:17 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 am
[...]
Dhammika Sutta (Snp 2.14) wrote:Let the intelligent person live a celibate life,
as one would avoid a pit of glowing coals;
but being unable to live the celibate life,
go not beyond the bounds with others’ partners.

binocular
Posts: 5476
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by binocular » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:08 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:59 am
Sorry but this does not appear related to Buddhism because Buddhist does not appear to teach lay people to emulate arahants. Also, arahants appear to not do this either. When you actually emulate an arahant, you probably won't be posting the way you are posting. Why don't we change the topic to sex & celibacy & lets see how your arahant emulation fairs? For some reason, since killing is generally a non-issue, I get the impression some Western Buddhists engage in self-sanctification by speaking fundamentalist words about non-killing.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:29 am
Change the subject to sex, drugs or not using money & watch how quickly the sanctity disappears.
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:21 pm
It appears your attempting to rely on the behaviour of an Arahant to support a fundamentalist view would deem celibacy as the only sexual orientation of a Buddhist. I think this shows how wrong the attempted argument is & that you need to do better in representing Buddhism accurately.
Interesting point. It's strange that so many Buddhists expect lays to emulate arahants when it comes to killing, but not in other ways. If lay people follow those expectations about not killing, while being lays in all the other aspects, that makes them very vulnerable, far more vulnerable than their lay practice can handle.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:07 am
So are all worldly pursuits according to Buddhism that are imbued with attachment, such as having a family. You have not really posted anything from the Pali suttas that condemns killing in self-defense. The posts have been mere generalisations & fundamentalist rhetoric. I stand by my opinion that the Buddha did not seek to 'micro-manage' the lives of ordinary people; particularly in a manner to impair their common sense.
I wouldn't say he didn't seek to micromanage people's lives; but that he didn't seek to judge and condemn lay people by standards that apply for arahants.

In discussions about killing, most people seem to think there are only two options: either one condones killing, or one condemns it. And that's it, no other option.

binocular
Posts: 5476
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by binocular » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:18 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:07 am
If a monk was physically attacked, the Buddha allowed him to strike back in self-defense, but never with the intention to kill.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ssage.html
What is the reference for this?

Secondly, this advice is grossly unrealistic, as it applies only to a select few highly trained people who know how to hit a person in such a way that incapacitates them, but doesn't kill them or cause permanent harm.

In self-defense classes for ordinary people, they teach that one should "only hit to deck" -- that is, one should hit another in self-defense only when one is sure one is able to incapacitate the attacker, because hitting with less force than that will just provoke the attacker to attack even more, and thus make things worse. Meaning, if one is going to hit in self-defense, one has to intend to do serious harm and be able to do so, because anything that is less than that is counterproductive.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests