perkele wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:43 amDooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:01 amThe suttas often describe how a King executes a murderer, thief or adulterer for their crimes. These suttas say the murderer, thief or adulterer commits bad karma but they do not comment on the King.
That is probably because the person (or people) being taught at that point is supposed to identify with the murderer, the thief or adulterer, and put himself into his position, while reflecting on the potential outcomes of his own potential actions. The king's morality is not questioned here, because he is not the one being spoken to (metaphorically). At least that seems to be the case for the sutta (
SN 12.70) you (@DooDoot) gave as an example.
DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:21 amObviously, these assumptions are not conclusive; unless we can find a definitive sutta where the Buddha tells Kings punishing evil-doers is unwholesome.
It is obvious that in the context of the sutta you gave as an example the person being taught is supposed to identify with the position of the one about to be punished by the king.
The Buddha taught people according to their situation and capabilities. Kings are not in a position where they are easily taught what to do. And the fact that the Buddha often spoke
about kings punishing and executing criminals to illustrate teachings on kamma and vipaka does not mean that he condoned such actions. Just that these were quite normal, and lent themselves to illustrate the points he had to teach.
DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:21 amAnd what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.
MN 9
In other words, killing rooted in greed, hatred & delusion is obviously unwholesome but killing not rooted in greed, hatred & delusion appears to not be mentioned.
Probably that is because (intentional!) killing not rooted in greed, hatred & delusion does not exist.
It seems to me that there is no intentional killing which is not rooted in greed, hatred and delusion. To intentionally deprive another being of life without greed, hatred or delusion present seems impossible to me. Even when it is to save another, as in
this example this kind of favouritism (who deserves to live and who doesn't) seems to be bound up with greed, hatred and delusion.
(In that example thread linked to you have made a number of unreasonable statements, jumped to conclusions, which I would like to refute, but not having time to address everything in detail at the moment.)
DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:21 amContrary to your assumptions, the Buddha appeared to keep silent on certain subtle matters.
Contrary to your assumptions, the Buddha was very clear in his statement of certain moral absolutes:
MN 9 wrote:Killing living beings is unwholesome
This
is a categorical statement. I don't understand how you can ignore that or try to argue around it.
MN 9 wrote:6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome."
Sounds all very absolute to me.
That doesn't mean that it's easy. Being caught up in moral dilemmas where every choice is bad is not uncommon, but more likely the norm. One has to work towards moral purity and towards freedom where one can actually abstain from unwholesome actions. That is why there is a monastic path of renunciation, requiring one to leave behind all worldly involvements, possessions, belongings, and affiliations, so one can strive towards purity.
DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:21 amI think we need to provide more compelling reasoning so to avoid
sīlabbata-parāmāsa & avoid a type of morality that does not lead to concentration & liberation but, instead, leads to the hindrance of paranoia, worry & flurry.
I do not see why regarding any killing categorically as unwholesome should lead to paranoia. But it might lead to samvega, when realizing how hard it is to actually abstain from killing, and how tightly one is entangled in this recycling process of killing to survive, dying to be reborn... and on and on.
Accepting the reality of certain moral absolutes does not amount to sīlabbata-parāmāsa. It just means accepting that the path to moral purity (and enlightenment) is difficult.
I recommend reading this essay:
Getting the message