Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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If you had to kill in self defense or to save others would you?

Yes
19
56%
No
15
44%
 
Total votes: 34

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No_Mind
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Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:07 am

If you had to kill someone in self-defense or to save others would you?

Thought Experiment - There is a terrorist driving a truck filled with explosives towards children playing on the beach. You have a button that when pressed will kill the man. Will you press it (as last resort after all other options have been exhausted) and stop the man?



:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:10 am

idk hope not
most likely would easily not press unless i knew the people who were going to die
try asking if people would kill their mother to save rest of humanity and mother begged to do it and it would be instant & painless
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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No_Mind
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:10 am
idk hope not
Then you are okay with death of children .. even though you had means to stop it?

It is not a challenge of your view .. I am just trying to get you to be candid and categorical about your action/inaction as case may be.

If my mother was threatening humanity I would surely kill her to stop her from harming innocents. No questions asked.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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rightviewftw
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:14 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am
Then you are okay with death of children .. even though you had means to stop it?
I can't control death or what other people do.
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am
I am just trying to get you to be candid and categorical about your action/inaction as case may be.
I do not intentionally kill or advice others to kill. That is my position.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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No_Mind
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:16 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:14 am
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am
Then you are okay with death of children .. even though you had means to stop it?
I can't control death or what other people do. I do not intentionally kill or recomend others to kill. That is my position.
But you avoided my question. Are you okay with death of children even though you had means to stop it? Be candid and categorical .. I am not looking to challenge you .. just need clear answers on this one

No greys please .. answer in binary mode

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rightviewftw
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:18 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:16 am
But you avoided my question. Are you okay with death of children even though you had means to stop it.
I do not mean to avoid your question.
You are not being fair demanding a categorical answer to this without explaining what you mean by "being OK".
I would say i am OK with it in sense that i will rather choose to wake up tomorrow knowing that i did not do it and it would not torment me
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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No_Mind
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:20 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:18 am
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:16 am
But you avoided my question. Are you okay with death of children even though you had means to stop it.
I do not mean to avoid your question.
You are not being fair demanding a categorical answer to this without explaining what you mean by "being OK"
Being Okay --> Would - not stopping the terrorist by pressing the button that kills him - be in accordance/line with your moral compass?

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:21 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:20 am
Being Okay - Would not stopping the terrorist by pressing the button that kills him be in accordance/line with your moral compass
absolutely not, stopping him is against my moral compass and i hope i would have enough Sati to follow my strategy and not be overcome by emotions.

If you kill that makes you a murderer, if you do not kill what is the blame here? Not being a killer? how is that a bad thing...
So terrorist is bad because he kills on account of views and you are justified in killing him on account of yours, let's see what your positions is in regards to killing family members.
id like to ask you this;
Would you **** mother or father to save rest of humanity and mother or father begged to do it and it would be instant & painless?
Would you **** terminally ill parent to save another?
Answer and i will make a statement.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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DooDoot
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:35 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:07 am
If you had to kill someone in self-defense or to save others would you?
This seems to be a fantasy-based question because this situation has never occurred in my life & because I do not have any weapons to use. :roll:

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No_Mind
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:36 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:21 am
If you kill that makes you a murderer, if you do not kill what is the blame here? Not being a killer? how is that a bad thing...
So terrorist is bad because he kills on account of views and you are justified in killing him on account of yours, let's see what your positions is in regards to killing family members.
id like to ask you this;
Would you **** mother or father to save rest of humanity and mother or father begged to do it and it would be instant & painless?
Would you **** terminally ill parent to save another?
Answer and i will make a statement.
Does **** stand for kill? If so I have already answered it.
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am
If my mother was threatening humanity I would surely kill her to stop her from harming innocents. No questions asked.

:namaste:
Instant and painless / terminally ill patient - are outside the purview of this thought experiment.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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rightviewftw
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:40 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:36 am
If my mother was threatening humanity I would surely kill her to stop her from harming innocents. No questions asked.
Right i missed it. Tbh idk what to say even but i want to question you more.
So your mother's intent is to kill all humans excl you.
What if you are innocent and everybody but your mother is trying to kill them all with a single push of a button to save you?
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

thepea
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by thepea » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:49 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:07 am
If you had to kill someone in self-defense or to save others would you?
I swatted at some bees that were after my daughter I don’t think I was trying to kill them, but I was pretty intent on protecting my daughter. It happened very quickly. If they persisted I think I would do what it took to protect her. I imagine I would respond the same way if a human attacked her. :shrug:

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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:50 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am
If my mother was threatening humanity I would surely kill her to stop her from harming innocents. No questions asked.
this is ānantarika kamma, you would go to hell
Last edited by dylanj on Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Disciple
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Disciple » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:52 am

If it had to do with saving family then absolutely yes. I'll take the bad karma for it.

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DooDoot
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:06 am

Disciple wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:52 am
If it had to do with saving family then absolutely yes. I'll take the bad karma for it.
Why do you say it is 'bad kamma'?
There is the case where a certain person takes life...bloody-handed, devoted to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

AN 10.176
Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech & intellect.

AN 6.63

jrl
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by jrl » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:17 am

I voted yes in the case of self defense. I am often perplexed that folks would not use violence for self defense because it will bring THEM bad kamma. I always thought the Buddha’s teachings were about putting others first, the Buddha was disappointed when his sangha was not taking care of a fellow monk with a nasty contagious disease. So much so he took care of the sick man himself. I think the Buddha would rather see a person take the bad kamma to do the right thing, rather than not getting his or her hands dirty to keep selfish pure kamma.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:31 am

Disciple wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:52 am
If it had to do with saving family then absolutely yes. I'll take the bad karma for it.
i do not condone this position but it is better than thinking it is blameless.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

Disciple
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Disciple » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:06 am

Why do you say it is 'bad kamma'?
Isn't all killing bad kamma in buddhism?

SarathW
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:44 am

Thought Experiment
No.
It is just a thought experiment.
:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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rightviewftw
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Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:53 am

Disciple wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:37 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:06 am

Why do you say it is 'bad kamma'?
Isn't all killing bad kamma in buddhism?
MN 64
The Buddha says to reflect while performing even mental action.
It does mean intention and it is right to say "bad kamma" but these words simply do not apply at moment to moment arising of aggregates, it would be wholesome/unwholesome states gaing footing.
It is right Kamma are intentions, but these are words, they are conjoined in sense that what one does that one intends upons, what one intends upon that one does, there is verb form of intention "intending" not that it is very significant but to illustrate my point.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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