Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz, the school shooter?

Yes
21
81%
No
5
19%
 
Total votes: 26

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Polar Bear
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by Polar Bear » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:08 am

Yes, I have compassion for him. I hope he comes to deeply regret his actions and turns to virtue and peace. I do not know what exactly is meant by forgiveness, but I will say that if he is truly remorseful for his actions such that he would never do such a thing again, then I pardon him, for the defilement within that led to such a heinous act is no longer there and so I will no longer judge him for it. Of course, without mind-reading abilities there's no way to know his state of mind, and he has proven to be very dangerous, so I think he should be removed from society for the remainder of his life, for the benefit of all, including him.
"And as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when there is a sick man — in pain, seriously ill — traveling along a road, far from the next village & far from the last, unable to get the food he needs, unable to get the medicine he needs, unable to get a suitable assistant, unable to get anyone to take him to human habitation. Now suppose another person were to see him coming along the road. He would do what he could out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for the man, thinking, 'O that this man should get the food he needs, the medicine he needs, a suitable assistant, someone to take him to human habitation. Why is that? So that he won't fall into ruin right here.' In the same way, when a person is impure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and who does not periodically experience mental clarity & calm, one should do what one can out of compassion, pity, & sympathy for him, thinking, 'O that this man should abandon wrong bodily conduct and develop right bodily conduct, abandon wrong verbal conduct and develop right verbal conduct, abandon wrong mental conduct and develop right mental conduct. Why is that? So that, on the break-up of the body, after death, he won't fall into the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, purgatory.' Thus the hatred for him should be subdued.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“Monks, these two are fools. Which two? The one who doesn’t see his transgression as a transgression, and the one who doesn’t rightfully pardon another who has confessed his transgression. These two are fools.

“These two are wise people. Which two? The one who sees his transgression as a transgression, and the one who rightfully pardons another who has confessed his transgression. These two are wise people.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN2_21.html
:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

alan
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by alan » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:10 am

f*** Him.

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No_Mind
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:54 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 pm
My full question was - Do you have enough compassion that if he is released without any punishment you would forgive him?
What exactly do you mean by "forgive"?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive

I have noted most of your posts are cryptic questions

X - I saw blue sky

Binocular - What do you mean by sky.

From now on I am not going to explain and answer your cryptic questions .. you have to ask questions where you explain what you ask, why you ask and your take on it first. Show proper respect others in the discussion.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

rightviewftw
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:02 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:54 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 pm
My full question was - Do you have enough compassion that if he is released without any punishment you would forgive him?
What exactly do you mean by "forgive"?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive

I have noted most of your posts are cryptic questions

X - I saw blue sky

Binocular - What do you mean by sky.

From now on I am not going to explain and answer your cryptic questions .. you have to ask questions where you explain what you ask, why you ask and your take on it first. Show proper respect others in the discussion.

:namaste:
it is a legitimate question. Forgiveness like liberty, communism, democracy are very abstract terms. Yet Compassion Pali: Karuna is incredibly well defined. So when you ask about forgiveness and compassion, further asking people to quantify and tell you the measurements it is only fair to ask what the heck your are talking about. You do not have to answer of course but this is a Buddhist forum certain words have meaning here unless otherwise stated.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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No_Mind
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:02 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:54 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 pm

What exactly do you mean by "forgive"?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive

I have noted most of your posts are cryptic questions

X - I saw blue sky

Binocular - What do you mean by sky.

From now on I am not going to explain and answer your cryptic questions .. you have to ask questions where you explain what you ask, why you ask and your take on it first. Show proper respect others in the discussion.

:namaste:
it is a legitimate question. Forgiveness like liberty, communism, democracy are very abstract terms. Yet Compassion Pali: Karuna is incredibly well defined. So when you ask about forgiveness and compassion, further asking people to quantify and tell you the measurements it is only fair to ask what the heck your are talking about.
And I shared a dictionary .. not that I avoided answering

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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seeker242
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by seeker242 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:06 am

"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.
Of course the above is also applicable when someone kills other people.

rightviewftw
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:09 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 am

And I shared a dictionary .. not that I avoided answering

:namaste:
It is good but you can not expect the world to operate on your definitions.
as per the link
to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)
or;
to give up resentment of or claim to requital
this is way different than what you were asking. If you asked in these terms people would not ask what you mean by forgiveness if this is what you mean by forgiveness.

So it is most fair that you are asked and it is commendable that you answer.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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No_Mind
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:13 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:09 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:04 am

And I shared a dictionary .. not that I avoided answering

:namaste:
It is good but you can not expect the world to operate on your definitions.
as per the link
to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)
or;
to give up resentment of or claim to requital
this is way different than what you were asking!

So it is most fair that you are asked and it is good that you answer.
:namaste:
It is exactly what I meant ..

Do you have enough compassion for Cruz that you would cease feeling any resentment against him, in case he is let off without any punishment, and therefore have no objection to him being your neighbour or coworker or bank teller.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

rightviewftw
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:16 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:13 am
Do you have enough compassion for Cruz that you would cease feeling any resentment against him, in case he is let off without any punishment, and therefore have no objection to him being your neighbour or coworker or bank teller.

:namaste:
I think resentment is directly countered by metta not karuna, afaik. probably not exactly how it works but maybe is related i dont have much better answer for you right now.
"He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me" — for those who brood on this, hostility isn't stilled. "He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me" — for those who don't brood on this, hostility is stilled. Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless. Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth. (Verses 3-5)

Translator: Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Alternative: "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"— in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease. "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me," — in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.
Translator: F. Max Müller
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:31 am

DNS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:16 pm
We can have compassion for him, as an obviously troubled person, facing mental health issues, but I've never been too much into forgiveness. Maybe it's my Jewish-upbringing or being Buddhist and accepting that there is kamma and kamma-vipaka for our actions, but I've felt it was kind of arrogant to say that one is forgiving of another's bad actions. Sometimes you see some parents on the tv news saying they forgive the killer. Who are they to forgive, they are not the victim? And who are we to play God and assume we have such powers?
do you believe in god or is that a figure of speech
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
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DNS
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:36 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:31 am
do you believe in god or is that a figure of speech
Just a figure of speech.

In my opinion it would be arrogant to assume we have the power, the ability to absolve someone of their actions by forgiving them. We can however, hold no hatred and no resentment toward someone and wish them well and wish for them to reform.

rightviewftw
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:48 am

About forgiveness, there are some game simulations that involve co-operation and an element of "betrayal". Best exploitative strategies seem to be those that impose consequences by denial of co-operation in the next round but accept future attempts. Life is a lot more complicated of course but it is the best we can model it goes to suggest that even in worldly affairs passing on profitable spots due to past betrayal will be negative long term value if one does not have a forgiving strategy.
https://plus.maths.org/content/mathemat ... val-nicest
Survival of the nicest?
One of the most puzzling aspects of human behaviour is cooperation, in situations where backstabbing and selfishness would seem to be more rewarding. From the point of view of evolutionary theory, the very existence of altruism and cooperation appear mysterious. The mechanics of evolution seem to imply that rugged competition is the order of the day; that, given an opportunity to benefit by cheating someone, or by defaulting on a deal, we will inevitably do so. Surely to do otherwise would mean relegation to the sidelines of the evolutionary game - and in that game, demotion means extinction.

In fact, as even the most cynical observer must admit, cooperation is rife in human society. Even if you sometimes despair of human nature, you must admit that the "dog-eat-dog" scenario conjured up by the phrase "survival of the fittest" doesn't bear much resemblance to life as we know it. So it must be that, from a purely selfinterested point of view, cooperation can actually be good for us.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:04 am

Aṅguttara Nikāya 5
161. Subduing Hatred

“There are these five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely. Which five?

“When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should develop good will for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued.

“When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should develop compassion for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued.

“When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should develop equanimity toward that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued.

“When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should pay him no mind & pay him no attention. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued.

“When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should direct one’s thoughts to the fact of his being the product of his actions: ‘This venerable one is the doer of his actions, heir to his actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for evil, to that will he fall heir.’ Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued.

“These are five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/an5.161
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

rightviewftw
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:22 am

:goodpost: :)
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:25 am

i didn't think that the post would be formatted automatically from facebook, so you get that sutta twice.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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