Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz, the school shooter?

Yes
21
81%
No
5
19%
 
Total votes: 26

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No_Mind
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Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by No_Mind » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:15 am

On February 14, 2018, a mass shooting occurred at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, United States, in the Miami metropolitan area. Seventeen people were killed and 15 more hospitalized, making it one of the world's deadliest school massacres. Nikolas Cruz, the man arrested as the shooter, is in the custody of the Broward County Sheriff's Office and has been charged with seventeen counts of premeditated murder. Cruz has confessed to the crime, according to the sheriff's office.

Social media posts by Cruz showed him joking about shooting people with his AR-15 rifle, and he allegedly promised retribution against police officers and anti-fascist organizations. Although no motivations have been offered by prosecutors or police, factors being looked into include "a pattern of disciplinary issues and unnerving behavior".

This attack is the deadliest shooting to take place at an American high school, surpassing the 1999 Columbine High School massacre in which 15 people died. It is tied with the 1966 University of Texas tower shooting as the third-deadliest school shooting in the United States, only behind the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting (which killed 27) and the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting (which killed 32).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoneman_ ... l_shooting
His lawyer was shown on CNN saying he is a broken man (footage not online yet)






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Last edited by No_Mind on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Justsit
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by Justsit » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:32 pm

Yes. He is obviously a very, very confused young man, ignorant and suffering just like all the beings in samsara.

What he did was wrong, no question, but that does not mean I should hate him.

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No_Mind
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by No_Mind » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 pm

Justsit wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:32 pm
Yes. He is obviously a very, very confused young man, ignorant and suffering just like all the beings in samsara.

What he did was wrong, no question, but that does not mean I should hate him.
Actually while I was creating the poll I realized it is not possible to write my question for a poll.

My full question was - Do you have enough compassion that if he is released without any punishment you would forgive him?

Impossible to write that in the question. But hope others read this bit.

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JohnK
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by JohnK » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:56 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 pm
Do you have enough compassion that if he is released without any punishment you would forgive him?
From my perspective, forgiveness is not based on what the justice system may or may not do with him.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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No_Mind
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by No_Mind » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:58 pm

JohnK wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:56 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 pm
Do you have enough compassion that if he is released without any punishment you would forgive him?
From my perspective, forgiveness is not based on what the justice system may or may not do with him.
Thank you. Good and candid response. I appreciate that.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

JohnK
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by JohnK » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:10 pm

The question gets me thinking about what forgiveness is. It seems to be an internal phenomenon that is only relevant to counter a previous internal phenomenon, such as anger, hatred. So, forgiveness may be replacing an unwholesome state with a wholesome one. It would be completely unnecessary/irrelevant if the previous unwholesome state did not arise in the first place. For example, if shock, horror, and/or sadness arise in response to such an event, forgiveness might not have to enter the picture at all. Just thinking...
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

pulga
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by pulga » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:51 pm

Justsit wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:32 pm
Yes. He is obviously a very, very confused young man, ignorant and suffering just like all the beings in samsara.
What is the ripening of suffering? When someone is overcome, and his mind is obsessed by suffering, either he sorrows and laments,
and beating his breast, he weeps and becomes distraught, or else he undertakes a search externally: 'Who is there that knows one word,
two words, for the cessation of suffering?' I say that suffering either ripens in confusion or in search. -- AN 6:63

binocular
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by binocular » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:42 pm
My full question was - Do you have enough compassion that if he is released without any punishment you would forgive him?
What exactly do you mean by "forgive"?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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DNS
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by DNS » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:16 pm

We can have compassion for him, as an obviously troubled person, facing mental health issues, but I've never been too much into forgiveness. Maybe it's my Jewish-upbringing or being Buddhist and accepting that there is kamma and kamma-vipaka for our actions, but I've felt it was kind of arrogant to say that one is forgiving of another's bad actions. Sometimes you see some parents on the tv news saying they forgive the killer. Who are they to forgive, they are not the victim? And who are we to play God and assume we have such powers?

SarathW
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:36 pm

We can have compassion for him, as an obviously troubled person, facing mental health issues, but I've never been too much into forgiveness.
Agree.
I think any person or group of people who involve in war affair are obviously troubled people, facing mental health.
I think even Hitler is one of them.
Obviously, we have compassion for them.
But what would happen if we are in the victim's shoes?
We all have the right to defend ourselves.
However, I voted as compassion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

JohnK
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by JohnK » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:58 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:16 pm
And who are we to play God and assume we have such powers?
I think this is why I was describing forgiveness (for the sake of exploration) as in internal state (vs. some kind of god-like sitting in judgment). It seems more to me like an intention (or accomplishment) of letting go of internal states of anger and proliferating thoughts that fan the flames. I suppose that the word does carry more baggage than just that. I was exploring it in a way that made some sense to me, and just maybe have given it an idiosyncratic meaning.
[Edit: And as said in my previous post, there may be no need to "forgive" (in the sense of my personal definition above) unless there is first anger and proliferation.]
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

paul
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by paul » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:47 pm

Mental health in the US:
• 1 in 5 Adults have a mental health condition. That's over 40 million Americans; more than the populations of New York and Florida combined.
• Youth mental health is worsening. Rates of youth with severe depression increased from 5.9% in 2012 to 8.2% in 2015. Even with severe depression, 76% of youth are left with no or insufficient treatment

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/issu ... th-america

Mindfulness and depression:
"Focusing on the here and now helps individuals become aware of their negative thoughts, acknowledge them without judgment and realize they’re not accurate reflections of reality"
https://psychcentral.com/lib/how-mindfu ... epression/

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rightviewftw
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:58 pm

i have compassion because that guy is mentally ill with super bad understanding of the world, he is in very bad condition and i hope he can reform himself inb4 the life force of body dissipates, otherwise i do think he will arrive at states where suffering is indescribable and nothing but compassion is appropriate at that point, the non-arising of compassion for beings undergoing that treatment does not apply. Even if he spends his life in luxury with 7 wives i feel compassion for him at this moment. I would most probably hate him if he killed my relatives or a good friend but i think that anger is mental illness of mine so id try to use it as evidence for the suck of the world, get over it and make non-return asap.

When i was young i was really pissed off at the world at some point. IE i thought the evident results of inequality were unacceptable unjustice, i was even considering options of political terrorism, assasinations, entertaining such ideas for years. I figured it out to be stupid but i also did not have any people at school harassing me and i had faith in humanity because i had a few smart and good hearted friends who were restraining me, i did not have anybody encouraging it. It is very random in this way over such a short sample, mind can change very quickly.

SarathW
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:17 am

It seems more to me like an intention (or accomplishment) of letting go of internal states of anger and proliferating thoughts that fan the flames.
Agree.
What matters here is your own mental state towards the perpetrator.
Perpetrator will reap his/ her own Kamma.
What we should do is to help mentally ill people to come out of that state.
Perhaps teaching them Dhamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dylanj
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Re: Do you have compassion for Nikolas Cruz?

Post by dylanj » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:58 pm
i have compassion because that guy is mentally ill with super bad understanding of the world, he is in very bad condition and i hope he can reform himself inb4 the life force of body dissipates, otherwise i do think he will arrive at states where suffering is indescribable and nothing but compassion is appropriate at that point, the non-arising of compassion for beings undergoing that treatment does not apply. Even if he spends his life in luxury with 7 wives i feel compassion for him at this moment. I would most probably hate him if he killed my relatives or a good friend but i think that anger is mental illness of mine so id try to use it as evidence for the suck of the world, get over it and make non-return asap.

When i was young i was really pissed off at the world at some point. IE i thought the evident results of inequality were unacceptable unjustice, i was even considering options of political terrorism, assasinations, entertaining such ideas for years. I figured it out to be stupid but i also did not have any people at school harassing me and i had faith in humanity because i had a few smart and good hearted friends who were restraining me, i did not have anybody encouraging it. It is very random in this way over such a short sample, mind can change very quickly.
:goodpost: :anjali: this is quite a respectable attitude :)
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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