Digital Money

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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DooDoot
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Re: Digital Money

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:10 am

LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:46 am
I was saying that they're virtually synonymous because they are the primary users and implementors of blockchain technology. You can't really have a conversation about one without mentioning the other. Cryptos gave rise to and popularized blockchain technology, and even today, the vast majority of blockchain applications involve cryptos in some way.
I found this video. At 0:53, Warren Buffet says exactly what I have been saying:



Same here, with Mohamed Aly El-Erian, who is a straight talker:





Again here:
Its very security negates its value in everyday use. ... Without a stable value Bitcoin cannot truly be a currency. Rather it is a commodity asset that one trades, like gold or silver, in hopes that its value will rise and yield a trading profit.May 17, 2017

Bitcoin Is An Asset, Not A Currency - Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydor ... -currency/
In these videos, it should be comprehended how the blockchain technology cannot involve a fluctuating speculative currency.





This link describes Blockchain in Medical Imagining (click on the image):



Note: I don't understand Blockchain myself. :smile:

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LG2V
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Re: Digital Money

Post by LG2V » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:10 am
LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:46 am
I was saying that they're virtually synonymous because they are the primary users and implementors of blockchain technology. You can't really have a conversation about one without mentioning the other. Cryptos gave rise to and popularized blockchain technology, and even today, the vast majority of blockchain applications involve cryptos in some way.
I found this video. At 0:53, Warren Buffet says exactly what I have been saying:



Same here, with Mohamed Aly El-Erian, who is a straight talker:





Again here:
Its very security negates its value in everyday use. ... Without a stable value Bitcoin cannot truly be a currency. Rather it is a commodity asset that one trades, like gold or silver, in hopes that its value will rise and yield a trading profit.May 17, 2017

Bitcoin Is An Asset, Not A Currency - Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydor ... -currency/
In these videos, it should be comprehended how the blockchain technology cannot involve a fluctuating speculative currency.





This link describes Blockchain in Medical Imagining (click on the image):



Note: I don't understand Blockchain myself. :smile:

I personally know of several Blockchain uses in the medical field (EncrypGen, MedicalChain, Curecoin, etc). They're colloquially referred to as cryptocurrencies, because they're a part of the cryptocurrency market, and they function the same way as many other cryptocurrencies while being blockchain solutions. The same goes for most blockchain solutions in other fields. It just seems like we're parsing rather trivial semantics here.

What blockchain solution is more famous that bitcoin and cryptocurrency? None. All of these technologies use blockchain and many of them, while speculative, are mostly only so because of their novelty. Many of them offer real solutions, like the ones I mentioned in earlier posts. They are all colloquially referred to as cryptocurrency, and they are bought and sold on the same market.

Warren Buffett is famous for being against cryptocurrency. I know that. He is an industrial investor and he even admits that he doesn't really understand how it works. I respect Buffett's accomplishments, but one man does not decide the value of an industry. Heck, one cryptocurrency (my least favorite - Ripple) has made one man one of the richest in the world already. Crypto made Peter Thiel and his VC company millions of dollars. It is recommended and advocated by the likes of Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, and Richard Branson. Cryptocurrency solutions are being researched and pursued by Mark Zuckerberg for Facebook. There are names to be dropped on both sides of the argument.

You're ignoring what I've been saying. Bitcoin is a novel technology. The original intention was to have it become a stable medium of exchange, i.e. a currency, when it achieved mass adoption. For now, it can mostly be referred to as a store of value, i.e. an asset. I don't disagree that bitcoin is better referred to as an asset at the present moment. It currently is similar to gold or silver. However, it is still evolving according to the plan.
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DooDoot
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Re: Digital Money

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:22 am

LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:01 am
Warren Buffett is famous for being against cryptocurrency. I know that. He is an industrial investor and he even admits that he doesn't really understand how it works. I respect Buffett's accomplishments, but one man does not decide the value of an industry. Heck, one cryptocurrency (my least favorite - Ripple) has made one man one of the richest in the world already. Crypto made Peter Thiel and his VC company millions of dollars. It is recommended and advocated by the likes of Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, and Richard Branson. Cryptocurrency solutions are being researched and pursued by Mark Zuckerberg for Facebook. There are names to be dropped on both sides of the argument.
Sure, but this ignores the basics of what currency is. Buffet merely said it is not a currency, which the Commodity Futures Trading Commission affirmed: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2015/09/18/bit ... he-us.html The other guys just made money from it if they sold it to people who are now losing money.
You're ignoring what I've been saying. Bitcoin is a novel technology. The original intention was to have it become a stable medium of exchange, i.e. a currency, when it achieved mass adoption. For now, it can mostly be referred to as a store of value, i.e. an asset. I don't disagree that bitcoin is better referred to as an asset at the present moment. It currently is similar to gold or silver. However, it is still evolving according to the plan.
Blockchain is a novel tehnology. Bitcoin is non-sense; from which unethical individuals have made lots of money by selling it to suckers. They boasted they took profits at the top & they are now buying back at the current bottom. While I like you as a person, you seem to not have understanding about the basics of economics & commerce. Bitcoin just bottomed at $6K and has now bounced to $8K. It might return again to $20K but Bitcoin is not something that can be "valued" as an ordinary investment can be valued. It is not an investment. It is a speculative hype drawing people in because certain people are boasting about the profits they made. I have had to work professionally with the financial affairs of many people who have lost lots of money. They lose money because they buy expensive speculative paper from the profiteers. If you end up on the right side of the trade, you benefit yourself (only).

With metta :heart:

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LG2V
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Re: Digital Money

Post by LG2V » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:22 am
LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:01 am
Warren Buffett is famous for being against cryptocurrency. I know that. He is an industrial investor and he even admits that he doesn't really understand how it works. I respect Buffett's accomplishments, but one man does not decide the value of an industry. Heck, one cryptocurrency (my least favorite - Ripple) has made one man one of the richest in the world already. Crypto made Peter Thiel and his VC company millions of dollars. It is recommended and advocated by the likes of Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, and Richard Branson. Cryptocurrency solutions are being researched and pursued by Mark Zuckerberg for Facebook. There are names to be dropped on both sides of the argument.
Sure, but this ignores the basics of what currency is. Buffet merely said it is not a currency, which the Commodity Futures Trading Commission affirmed: https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2015/09/18/bit ... he-us.html The other guys just made money from it if they sold it to people who are now losing money.
You're ignoring what I've been saying. Bitcoin is a novel technology. The original intention was to have it become a stable medium of exchange, i.e. a currency, when it achieved mass adoption. For now, it can mostly be referred to as a store of value, i.e. an asset. I don't disagree that bitcoin is better referred to as an asset at the present moment. It currently is similar to gold or silver. However, it is still evolving according to the plan.
Blockchain is a novel tehnology. Bitcoin is non-sense; from which unethical individuals have made lots of money by selling it to suckers. They boasted they took profits & they are now buying back. While I like you as a person, you seem to not have understanding about the basics of economics & commerce. Bitcoin just bottomed at $6K and has now bounced to $8K. It might return again to $20K but Bitcoin is not something that can be "valued" as an ordinary investment can be valued. It is not an investment. It is a speculative hype drawing people in because certain people are boasting about the profits they made. I have had to work professionally with the financial affairs of many people who have lost lots of money. They lose money because they buy expensive speculative paper from the profiteers. If you end up on the right side of the trade, you benefit yourself (only).

With metta :heart:
I don't have any problem with you either. :toast:

I don't think that risking your capital to invest in a project you believe in (bitcoin) is unethical at all. These people are taking profit much the same as they would from traditional stock investments. The volatility exists because the market is so new and unregulated. Currently a small amount of wealthy people can significantly affect the price of bitcoin, and the same is true of many other cryptocurrencies. Mass adoption will lead to its stability, and that stability will cement its value as a currency. It is a speculative asset right now, and I'm not arguing that with you. However, it is intended to be used as currency once levels of adoption become high enough to produce stability; and it's made to be a superior currency to fiat, bypassing many of the traditional drawbacks such as third parties, fraud, lack of privacy, state meddling, and stealing.

I know a good deal when I see one, and I don't fault others for finding it before me. It's perfectly ethical to invest in promising technology.
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http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

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DooDoot
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Re: Digital Money

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:27 am

LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:54 am
These people are taking profit much the same as they would from traditional stock investments.
There are purely baseless speculative stock investments however the majority of stock investments are based on recurring (annual) company earnings or profit. People invest as an investment & take profits when the stock is maturely valued or overvalued, based on earnings, i,e,, excessive PE ratios & deficient dividend yields.
LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:54 am
I know a good deal when I see one, and I don't fault others for finding it before me. It's perfectly ethical to invest in promising technology.
Blockchain is technology. As for Bitcoin, the 'King of the Gods' of the Illuminati spoke today. :D
Cryptocurrencies Are Like Ponzi Schemes, World Bank Chief Says...

8 February 2018, 09:42 GMT+11

The head of the World Bank compared cryptocurrencies to “Ponzi schemes,” the latest financial voice to raise questions about the legitimacy of digital currencies such as Bitcoin.

“In terms of using Bitcoin or some of the cryptocurrencies, we are also looking at it, but I’m told the vast majority of cryptocurrencies are basically Ponzi schemes,” World Bank Group President Jim Yong Kim said Wednesday at an event in Washington. “It’s still not really clear how it’s going to work.”

In a speech this week, Bank of International Settlements chief Agustin Carstens said there’s a “strong case” for authorities to rein in digital currencies because their links to the established financial system could cause disruptions. Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell has said that “governance and risk management will be critical” for cryptocurrencies.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... chief-says

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LG2V
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Re: Digital Money

Post by LG2V » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:27 am
LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:54 am
These people are taking profit much the same as they would from traditional stock investments.
There are purely baseless speculative stock investments however the majority of stock investments are based on recurring (annual) company earnings or profit. People invest as an investment & take profits when the stock is maturely valued or overvalued, based on earnings, i,e,, excessive PE ratios & deficient dividend yields.
LG2V wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:54 am
I know a good deal when I see one, and I don't fault others for finding it before me. It's perfectly ethical to invest in promising technology.
Blockchain is technology. As for Bitcoin, the 'King of the Gods' of the Illuminati spoke today. :D
Cryptocurrencies Are Like Ponzi Schemes, World Bank Chief Says...

8 February 2018, 09:42 GMT+11

The head of the World Bank compared cryptocurrencies to “Ponzi schemes,” the latest financial voice to raise questions about the legitimacy of digital currencies such as Bitcoin.

“In terms of using Bitcoin or some of the cryptocurrencies, we are also looking at it, but I’m told the vast majority of cryptocurrencies are basically Ponzi schemes,” World Bank Group President Jim Yong Kim said Wednesday at an event in Washington. “It’s still not really clear how it’s going to work.”

In a speech this week, Bank of International Settlements chief Agustin Carstens said there’s a “strong case” for authorities to rein in digital currencies because their links to the established financial system could cause disruptions. Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell has said that “governance and risk management will be critical” for cryptocurrencies.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... chief-says
These markets are new, and I agree that much of the investment is speculative. However, there is real value there, and many of these companies offer real solutions that will genuinely alter the economy and change people's lives.

There are cryptocurrency-based platforms for buying and selling renewable energy, buying and selling telecom data, creating decentralized peer-to-peer networks that pay content producers and curators, online shopping platforms, direct to consumer food sales, AI computing, DNA storage, and so many more things. These cryptocurrencies operate on decentralized models. This means that there's not meant to be a central group that decides the cryptocurrency's direction or rakes in profits to announce to others. It's a completely different business model--one that has yet to genuinely expand and truly reach its stride in the markets, due to its novelty.

So investments are speculative, yes, and many of these companies are still new and have yet to produce the traditional signs of profitability that are associated with stocks, but that's not to say that they won't; many of these cryptocurrencies aren't even a year old, so talk of annual profits, or even price earnings or dividends, is a bit hasty.

I am not at all put off by the World Bank President deriding cryptocurrency. In fact, it makes me smile. :smile:
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DooDoot
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Re: Digital Money

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:58 pm

Doommers are out in force.
Get Ready for Most Cryptocurrencies to Hit Zero, Goldman Says

By Kana Nishizawa

7 February 2018, 15:22 GMT+11

The tumble in cryptocurrencies that erased nearly $500 billion of market value over the past month could get a lot worse, according to Goldman Sachs Group Inc.’s global head of investment research.

Most digital currencies are unlikely to survive in their current form, and investors should prepare for coins to lose all their value as they’re replaced by a small set of future competitors, Goldman’s Steve Strongin said in a report dated Feb. 5. While he didn’t posit a timeframe for losses in existing coins, he said recent price swings indicated a bubble and that the tendency for different tokens to move in lockstep wasn’t rational for a “few-winners-take-most” market.

“The high correlation between the different cryptocurrencies worries me,” Strongin said. “Because of the lack of intrinsic value, the currencies that don’t survive will most likely trade to zero.”

Today’s digital coins lack long-term staying power because of slow transaction times, security challenges and high maintenance costs, according to Strongin. He said the introduction of regulated Bitcoin futures hasn’t addressed those concerns and he dismissed the idea of a first-mover advantage -- noting that few of Internet bubble’s high fliers survived after the late 1990s.

“Are any of today’s cryptocurrencies going to be an Amazon or a Google, or will they end up like many of the now-defunct search engines? Just because we are in a speculative bubble does not mean current prices can’t increase for a handful of survivors,” Strongin said. “At the same time, it probably does mean that most, if not all, will never see their recent peaks again.”

Strongin was more upbeat about the blockchain technology that underlies digital currencies, saying it could help improve financial ledgers. But even there he sounded a note of caution, arguing that current technology doesn’t yet offer the speed required for market transactions.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ldman-says

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DooDoot
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Re: Digital Money

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:18 pm

The Real Value of Bitcoin Revealed

Luke Burgess Photo By Luke Burgess
Written Feb. 08, 2018

Crypto-mania has peaked.

The hype surrounding cryptocurrencies reached a fever pitch in mid-December when Bitcoin prices flew to nearly $20,000. Prices were up over 1,900% in 12 months.

December 2017 also saw a record in both the number of initial coin offerings (ICOs) and the amount of money raised by new ICOs. There were a total of 74 new ICOs in December, which raised over $1.6 billion in funds. The number of new ICOs dropped in January and continues to fall as we get deeper into February.

The crypto market is already overcrowded. Along with Bitcoin, there are now over 1,500 cryptocurrencies on the market.

There are currently more cryptocurrencies than the total number of issuers listed on Canada's Toronto Stock Exchange.

The record-breaking month for ICOs and Bitcoin's record price also coincided with a new trend in investor-bait for public companies: include cryptocurrency or blockchain in your business model however possible.

The most notable of the initial campaigns was the Long Island Iced Tea Corp. In late December, the iced tea maker suddenly announced the company would entirely shift its focus toward Bitcoin and blockchain technology — and even change the company's name to Long Blockchain Corp. (NASDAQ: LBCC).

The announcement caused share prices of the tiny beverage company to skyrocket over 250% in a single day.

With Bitcoin and cryptocurrency prices flying, there was almost no limit to the optimism among social media posters. Some believed the price of Bitcoin was going to a million. Others believed it was going to infinity.

December 2017 was no doubt the peak of crypto-mania. Since then, Bitcoin prices have fallen as much as 70%, dipping below $6,000 earlier this week. Prices have since recovered a bit. At last look, BTC was trading just over $8,000. But with Bitcoin prices in sharp decline since December, the hype surrounding the cryptocurrency is now quieting down.

Bitcoin's original luster and brilliance is fading. It's starting to lose that new car smell.

I think that makes it a good time to take stock of what we've learned about Bitcoin over the past several months to reevaluate the cryptocurrency's true value.

What Is Bitcoin’s Real Value?

Bitcoin's narrative began with it being an instrument for instant, easy, and anonymous transferring of funds. It was, for all intents and purposes, to be a currency :roll: .

But as it stands today, Bitcoin is way too volatile to be used as a currency by the masses... it's failing at the job of being money.

Volatility is the last thing you want in your currency. Among other reasons, that's because the settlement of transactions takes time.

There's really no such thing as an instant transaction. Even digital transactions take time, albeit a very short amount of time.

But only a very short amount of time is needed to interfere with payment values when there are rapid price fluctuations in the currency being used.

Currency volatility can be a major problem for both retailers and customers. And even though there are many online retailers that now accept Bitcoin, some are now ending its payment support because of the crypto's price volatility.

In 2014, Stripe became one of the first major payment processors to support Bitcoin payments. But the company recently announced it will end support for Bitcoin as a payment method in April:
Transaction confirmation times have risen substantially; this, in turn, has led to an increase in the failure rate of transactions denominated in fiat currencies. By the time the transaction is confirmed, fluctuations in Bitcoin price mean that it’s for the “wrong” amount.
At the end of the day, Bitcoin's volatility makes it a poor form of money to be used on a large scale by retailers and consumers. Bitcoin's volatility may change in the future. But for now, Bitcoin is too unstable to be sound money. :roll:

So if Bitcoin isn't valuable as money, why is it valuable at all?

Well, there are many opinions about the nature of Bitcoin's value. Some will say Bitcoin's value is in its underlying technology. Others will say Bitcoin's simply not valuable at all. But as a long-time student of the gold market, I have an alternative perspective on Bitcoin's value.

While I do believe Bitcoin's underlying technology is nothing less than revolutionary, I believe Bitcoin is valuable for the same reason gold is.

Bitcoin has always been compared to gold. Many have even called Bitcoin “the new gold.” And, in many ways, Bitcoin and gold do have a lot in common.

Gold and Bitcoin both have finite supplies :roll: . And they're both monetary and wealth storage assets independent of government.

Neither Bitcoin nor gold produce any income, either. You can't eat, grow food on, gather water from, live on top of, or otherwise physically use Bitcoin or gold, other than for exchange. Gold has some limited utility in the industrial sector. But aside from limited utility, both are mostly useless to the masses.

Other than sell it for cash, what would you actually do with a million ounces of gold? Look at it in a bank safe?

What would you actually do with a million Bitcoin? You couldn't even physically look at it.

Warren Buffett famously said of gold:
Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head.
The same can be said of Bitcoin: Bitcoin gets electronically mined in China, or someplace. Then we digitally store it on a server and pay exchanges and miners to guard it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head.

So why does either have any price value at all?

Well, again, there are many opinions on why gold has any value. But from my perspective, it's all about faith. Here's what I mean...

Fervent gold bugs will argue until they're blue in the face that gold has a natural "intrinsic value." But the value of gold is ultimately driven by the mistrust of government and/or fear the controlling powers are at significant risk in some way.

When people mistrust the government or believe it's at risk, their faith in the establishment naturally shifts to independent systems.

Gold is an independent monetary and wealth storage system. The government doesn't control the supply or value of gold. So, when people mistrust the government, they seek out independence in gold. This is what ultimately drives gold's value today.

Bitcoin is also an independent monetary and wealth storage system. There is no government controlling the supply or value of Bitcoin. And if you ask them, many of the crypto-obsessed would tell you Bitcoin's independence from government is one of its defining and most valuable characteristics.

Going forward, I expect the price of Bitcoin to be driven by the same factors that drive gold prices: In times when people mistrust their government and/or fear the controlling powers are at risk in some way, the price of Bitcoin will be driven higher.

In a way, Bitcoin is very much a new gold.

It's not the new gold...

It's a new gold.

Bitcoin isn't set to replace gold. Gold has a +5,000-year history as a strategic monetary asset and is still very much used as such.

But I do believe Bitcoin will likely end up next to gold as an anti-establishment asset. The next Brexit, major currency collapse, or other large-scale geopolitical breakdown will very likely bring significant price increases to Bitcoin... and gold.

To sum it up, Bitcoin is valuable for the same reason gold is valuable. It's an anti-establishment/pro-independent asset. And going forward, as any anti-establishment sentiment grows, I expect the price of Bitcoin (and gold) to follow.

Until next time...

chownah
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Re: Digital Money

Post by chownah » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:55 am

Bitcoin is also an independent monetary and wealth storage system.
I think it is wrong to think of bitcoin as being a wealth storage system....assuming that "bitcoin" here is being used to mean "a particular implementation of blockchain technology".

In blockchain nothing is phycically stored except for a bunch of electron inside an electronic device....and other than that I think the only thing that is stored is information. I think it is not appropriate to think of information as being wealth.

Bitcoin is probably better thought of as being an arbitrary valuation of the effort required to operate that electronic device....and the entire system is probably best thought of as sort of accounting system. (This is my view but it is not well informed as I have never studied just exactly how bitcoin and its associated blockchain is administered.)
chownah

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Kamran
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Re: Digital Money

Post by Kamran » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:18 am

Iranian Government Builds Infrastructure to Adopt BitCoin Use.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/iranian- ... coin-users

"With Bitcoin, Iranian citizen could easily bypass economic sanctions and be able to conduct international trades."
"Silence gives answers"

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi

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LG2V
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Re: Digital Money

Post by LG2V » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:00 pm

Kamran wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:18 am
Iranian Government Builds Infrastructure to Adopt BitCoin Use.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/iranian- ... coin-users

"With Bitcoin, Iranian citizen could easily bypass economic sanctions and be able to conduct international trades."
That's cool. I would like to see more of this happening.
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LG2V
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Re: Digital Money

Post by LG2V » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 pm

Here's a great article that highlights the potential benefits of cryptocurrency and blockchain.


https://www.cbinsights.com/research/blo ... g-banking/
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