Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:18 am

alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:36 am
Friends, I hate bad things.
If you do not, please explain here.
Hate is a personal choice, and I've gotten tired of making this body lose its natural coolness just because "I" feel for using the energy for my own selfish reasoning. And if I start hating a chosen "thing", do I add or do I diminish to the collected amount of hate "going around"? ... As far as I can see, I only see it growing and getting harder and heavier here.

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1613
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Bundokji » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:40 am

Is this a false dilemma? i either hate him or love him!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 729
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by seeker242 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:27 pm

Harboring hate for bad things is foolish because simply hating does nothing to actually stop bad things from happening. It's actually counterproductive to that end because it consumes energy that could otherwise be used in a productive manner, to effect some actual positive changes. Stomping around in your living room yelling "I hate that!" doesn't actually change anything.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2102
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Zom » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:45 pm

"I hate to hate and I hate that" (c) :D

User avatar
Will
Posts: 1016
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Will » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:11 pm

alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:28 am
Why? If you do not hate him, you are God Dam Idiot.
Sounds like you may be developing a hatred of those who do not hate what you hate. Can you see where this leads you?

Old saying from China maybe... "One who lives to hunt & kill dragons will turn into & die as a dragon."
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

perkele
Posts: 891
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by perkele » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:16 pm

alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:48 am
Schiff/Hoelzle 2020. Make America Smart Again.
I would campaign for hindsight 20/20.
Too bad I'm not American.

But who are Schiff and Hoelzle? Google won't tell me.

User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:54 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:41 am
Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:36 am
But, are you really willing to sit, even when everything else is going to hell?
Not just sit, I'm also willing to support Trump.

Image
alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:36 am
...even when there are more things you can do to stop the world from going to hell?
I guess I could buy an official Make America Great Again hat to help contribute to his 2020 re-election. Thanks for the suggestion.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Paul. :)
good example of why some things, not people have to be hated, evil has to hated if we are going to fight it, that doesn't mean hating evil people, but hating the evil within them.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Stiphan
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:25 pm

"To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants,[12] and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing." - Maṅgala Sutta, Khp 5.

It's good to loathe evil itself, but that loathing or hate should not be directed at a human or non-human being.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11705
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by DNS » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:17 pm

perkele wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:16 pm
But who are Schiff and Hoelzle? Google won't tell me.
Adam Schiff is a liberal Congressman from California.
Hoelzle is some guy who takes great beach photos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Schiff
https://www.facebook.com/CoastalPhotogr ... lanHoelzle

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4094
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:38 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:25 pm
"To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants,[12] and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing." - Maṅgala Sutta, Khp 5.

It's good to loathe evil itself, but that loathing or hate should not be directed at a human or non-human being.
I think it depends on what is meant by "loathe". In the context of the quoted sutta, the terms ārati and virati are used as a pair, and mean to abstain, avoid, or keep off or apart from. Thanissaro, for example, renders that particular line
Avoiding, abstaining from evil;
and Piyadassi
To cease and abstain from evil
and Dr. Soni
Avoiding evil and abstaining,
Narad Thera's translation of "to loathe more evil" seems in this context to be idiosyncratic or even possibly misleading. There is, as far as I can see, nothing of hating the evil, merely that the evil should be avoided; which means that the same strategy (ārati & virati) can certainly be applied to sentient beings. If there is anything in the Dhamma which is equivalent to the Christian idea of "Hating the sin, but loving the sinner", I haven't seen it yet. Are there any other candidates for it? Hating anything just seems to multiply the problem. In the context of meditation, physical pains or mental problems such as restlessness are made worse by hating them.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4094
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:10 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:54 pm

good example of why some things, not people have to be hated, evil has to hated if we are going to fight it, that doesn't mean hating evil people, but hating the evil within them.
I would be interested to see whether there are any examples of things (presumably abstract qualities?) that the Buddha says have to be hated, and how we are supposed to do this. Normally he says that qualities are to be abandoned or avoided. Like other posters here, I can't recall the Buddha advocating hatred towards anyone or anything.

dharmacorps
Posts: 501
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:12 pm

Hate is intrinsically toxic and damaging to the mind. If you hate anybody, or anything, you are putting limits on your mind. If you limit your mind, you limit your wisdom.

Having hate in your heart is one thing. Believing in the righteousness in your hate is probably even worse-- delusion.

Trump or no trump, take care of yourself first. Before pointing out other's foolishness its best to start at home. I say that as someone with a long history of problems with ill-will/hatred.

User avatar
Stiphan
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm

Well, obviously, no reasonable person would love evil... if we are not to abhor evil, are we then to simply be equanimous towards it? By 'evil', I mean the evil things that people do. Evil, in the Dhamma of the Buddha is to be shunned and strongly criticized. I remember a sutta in which the Buddha noticed a worthless person in the community of monks and, I think Sariputta or Moggallana, grabbed him by the arm and threw him out. Didn't the Buddha "fight" with Māra and didn't He defeat him? Did the Buddha suffuse Māra with love? Or was he equanimous towards him? Perhaps the latter. But the Buddha also said that we should bear enmity towards none. I think evil - and the evil things people do - are to be abhorred and censured to the highest degree, for they lead to great harm to a large number of beings; but the evil people themselves are to be shown compassion - not hated - for they also harm themselves.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4094
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:40 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm
Well, obviously, no reasonable person would love evil... if we are not to abhor evil, are we then to simply be equanimous towards it? By 'evil', I mean the evil things that people do. Evil, in the Dhamma of the Buddha is to be shunned and strongly criticized. I remember a sutta in which the Buddha noticed a worthless person in the community of monks and, I think Sariputta or Moggallana, grabbed him by the arm and threw him out. Didn't the Buddha "fight" with Māra and didn't He defeat him? Did the Buddha suffuse Māra with love? Or was he equanimous towards him? Perhaps the latter. But the Buddha also said that we should bear enmity towards none. I think evil - and the evil things people do - are to be abhorred and censured to the highest degree, for they lead to great harm to a large number of beings; but the evil people themselves are to be shown compassion - not hated - for they also harm themselves.
I can't see any distinction between how we are to treat evil people, and how we are to treat the evil qualities that motivate them and by which we know them. In the terms which you use above, both are to be shunned; both are to be strongly criticised; both are to be abhorred; both are to be censured. In terms that you don't use, both are to be avoided; abandoned; and given up. Some might see this lack of distinction as an aspect of the anatta doctrine. What being is there that is independent of their qualities? Some of course might not. In any case, in terms of the OP, I can't recall the Buddha advocating hatred for anyone or anything, including abstracted qualities such as intentions or predispositions or mind-states. Is there good dosa and bad dosa? I'm open to persuasion, especially by means of the suttas.

User avatar
Stiphan
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:44 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:40 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm
Well, obviously, no reasonable person would love evil... if we are not to abhor evil, are we then to simply be equanimous towards it? By 'evil', I mean the evil things that people do. Evil, in the Dhamma of the Buddha is to be shunned and strongly criticized. I remember a sutta in which the Buddha noticed a worthless person in the community of monks and, I think Sariputta or Moggallana, grabbed him by the arm and threw him out. Didn't the Buddha "fight" with Māra and didn't He defeat him? Did the Buddha suffuse Māra with love? Or was he equanimous towards him? Perhaps the latter. But the Buddha also said that we should bear enmity towards none. I think evil - and the evil things people do - are to be abhorred and censured to the highest degree, for they lead to great harm to a large number of beings; but the evil people themselves are to be shown compassion - not hated - for they also harm themselves.
I can't see any distinction between how we are to treat evil people, and how we are to treat the evil qualities that motivate them and by which we know them. In the terms which you use above, both are to be shunned; both are to be strongly criticised; both are to be abhorred; both are to be censured. In terms that you don't use, both are to be avoided; abandoned; and given up. Some might see this lack of distinction as an aspect of the anatta doctrine. What being is there that is independent of their qualities? Some of course might not. In any case, in terms of the OP, I can't recall the Buddha advocating hatred for anyone or anything, including abstracted qualities such as intentions or predispositions or mind-states. Is there good dosa and bad dosa? I'm open to persuasion, especially by means of the suttas.
One has to make a distinction, not treat them as if they were the same thing. How can you love the evil that evil people do? On the other hand, how can you hate a person or a being?

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests